gmane.culture.transportation.humanpowered.velomobile

Twike price

Paolo Bartoli — 2012-01-11T17:44:27

Found some price informations on Twike website, not a cheap choice!


Prices 2010
TWIKE Easy from 16.590,- (excluded batteries)
TWIKE Activefrom 17.190,- (excluded batteries)

Batteries
Range 60-80 kmLi-Ion 9,6 Ah€ 5.976,-
Range 90-110 kmLi-Ion 14,4 Ah€ 8.964,-
Range 120-150 kmLi-Ion 19,2 Ah€ 11.952,-
Range 160-200 kmLi-Ion 24,0 Ah€ 14.940,-

All prices are including VAT and excluding Dutch registration and delivery costs.


Paolo Bartoli, Monza Italy
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Paths to future velos

David M. Eggleston — 2012-01-06T17:10:40

Hi John,

Thanks for your detailed reply. It is good to be back in contact with you. In view of your long experience and accomplishments I place a high value on what you say. And we old farts need to stick together!

David

From: JOHN TETZ 
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 8:04 PM
To: David M. Eggleston 
Subject: Re: [Velomobile] Velomobile design

David Eggleston

Thank you for giving your experienced and wide ranging overview on various VM issues. Very valuable information. 
I agree we have a lot yet to learn but we have accomplished a lot in these last 10 years of VM development.

......Too much of a range is asking a lot of a design, given the power source is so weak. Seems to me that honing a design for a specific area of need is more apt to be accomplished. Cars range from small to large with few to many features to accomplish various needs.

   I admit to being a fan of VM.nl and their design and manufacturing work. In the Quest and Mango (and now Strada) they have all-around velos that do well in many uses. Good aerodynamics blesses you every time you push on the pedals, and I can see why so many find that specification so important. Also your safety is enhanced by going fast, so the relative velocity differences with respect to traffic are smaller and the reaction time after detecting you is in your favor, at least for city riding.
   I used to use a PA system we developed, and thought I was getting full exercise anyway. Not so. When I visited the NL in 2008, a bit sick and jet-lagged and riding a borrowed velo, I was unable to keep up with a fast velo group. Marjolein, a 60-year-old very fit lady, drifted back to push me so I could keep up. Then I realized that I needed every scrap of exercise I could get to approach their level of fitness. I would never have been able to train and complete ROAM if I had been relying on a PA system previously, unless of course I had a reliable such PA system in my Quest. But I am the sailing type that disdains power assist for personal use, so have to be content with what my body can do. Also I refuse to carry around the extra weight of motor and batteries that I don’t really need. I go for a lightweight velo.

What I have set my sights on is a practical suburban human powered alternate transportation vehicle to be used by average folks to do their shopping and running errands in the 2 to 5 mile radius. Average speed 14 mph. These design limits give the opportunity to come up with a viable vehicle.

........How true this is. But I look at the fact that the bare trike business is booming. Although adding a shell of some kind may not be ideal it does change a trike into a vehicle, a vehicle that is first of all not seasonably limited, has weather protection, some crash protection, more visible to cars etc. This will change the consciousness of the trike rider into using the vehicle more as local alternate transportation rather than just recreation

.> The covered trike needs a lot of cargo space. I’m not sure how much the Velocity Velo body has. Maybe it is adequate. One can hope that it will change the consciousness.

Second, by being seen by the public these vehicles will affect their awareness. I see and hear a change in the publics response to my VM over a 7 year period. They more often comment now - it doesn't use gas, its good for the environment, and its good for the health of the rider, etc. 
I am hearing more and more happy - I like what you are doing horn honks - from drivers. 
The publics environmental awareness is changing. We need a viable practical vehicle. 
It doesn't need all the wish list of advanced features.

I designed my present VM 8 years ago coming from a long background with streamliners and the thrill of speed.
What's important to me now is weather protection (head in), light weight, quiet, ease of access to decent cargo space, some amount of suspension, small physical size for parking reasons. Aerodynamics is there but further down the list. 
This is accomplishable given what we know. 
In another 10 years more viable vehicles will be developed. 

As regards head-in, Frans van der Merwe’s Pterovelo used a breathing tube to minimize inside condensation on ROAM. Others have done the same thing. Mary Arneson and her Cab-Bikes didn’t have this setup, AFAIK. It would not be a big deal to add it. One of my customers living in northern Idaho came up with it on his own. The Dutch aversion to it is to some extent justified by the dangers of limiting your visual field in any way. If the big vehicles I share the roads with misjudge my intentions or fail to see me they could crush me and hardly notice it. I’m quite sure they wouldn’t even get a citation for doing it. Just a hint of a shadow or an unexpected light beam crossing my peripheral vision can scare the hell out of me. It is one of the problems of the reclined position combined with age that I can’t turn my head far enough to see backwards. Even now I sometimes pull out not knowing for sure, but estimating from the lack of vehicle noise that it must be safe. Mirrors have limitations too. Sometimes my mirrors show nothing, but somebody pulls out and accelerates fast and passes me when I had no idea they were there until I hear them. So limiting sound cues by enclosing the cockpit is also a worry. Maybe I need a rear-view camera and dash-mounted screen for safety.

.....Yes, but some method of sharing ideas is very important. Look at the advancements made after the birth of the IHPVA in 1975 - which eventually lead to present day Velomobiles

. >Yes, but John Abbey states an obvious worry, why should I share my ideas so somebody else can profit from them instead of me. At the current level of awareness on the hupi list, this is probably not a problem, but it is a worry.

In some ways its less a technology issue than a change in consciousness as to why and how we use these vehicles. Requiring the wish list of advanced features hints of 19th and 20th century thinking where the Earths energy and resources were thought to be limitless. Efficiency - doing more with less - is the 21st century password. HPVs are up with the efficiency of railroad trains and super tankers.

There is indeed a great discrepancy between the 142 velo crowd of mostly Quests and Mangos (and Stradas) at the 2011 Olliebollentocht a few days ago, and the local bike scene. I am still in the “watch that roadie recede in the rear-view mirror” crowd. Even as old and slow as I am, I now have a carbon fiber Quest that I ordered for ROAM. The original was crushed in shipment and I only got a replacement in November. Going fast is still important to me. Also, since my friend John Abbey is living with us, working for VMUSA, and riding his velo with me, and is much younger and faster, I need to have some chance of keeping up with him, or at least not getting so far behind that he gives up on me. 
   Ymte uses a cargo trailer on a Quest for bulky packages. That way he still has the advantage of a fast vehicle when he drops the trailer. I tend to use our car for that, even though I have a cargo trailer, since I rarely need it and sometimes the car is necessary for the trip anyway. My body fat content was 18.7% according to my Tanita sports scale before ROAM, but dropped to 5% afterwards. It is now up to 10%, and unless I ride a lot more will keep going up. I am fighting to retain my fitness but seem to be losing the battle. I just don’t have time to ride enough to stabilize it anymore.

Notice for one how I have skirted the issue of funding.

We had a chance to visit Chet Kyle on our way up to Portland for ROAM. He had a crash due to a fawn jumping in front of him a year ago or so, and is recovered but not quite the same. He has cleaned out his office and cut down or cut out his consulting on bicycle speed. I guess we both have to look forward to that sort of thing, unfortunately. I will keep at it as long as possible.

John Tetz 

David Eggleston
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Paths to future velos

David M. Eggleston — 2012-01-06T17:10:40

Hi John,

Thanks for your detailed reply. It is good to be back in contact with you. In view of your long experience and accomplishments I place a high value on what you say. And we old farts need to stick together!

David

From: JOHN TETZ 
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 8:04 PM
To: David M. Eggleston 
Subject: Re: [Velomobile] Velomobile design

David Eggleston

Thank you for giving your experienced and wide ranging overview on various VM issues. Very valuable information. 
I agree we have a lot yet to learn but we have accomplished a lot in these last 10 years of VM development.

......Too much of a range is asking a lot of a design, given the power source is so weak. Seems to me that honing a design for a specific area of need is more apt to be accomplished. Cars range from small to large with few to many features to accomplish various needs.

   I admit to being a fan of VM.nl and their design and manufacturing work. In the Quest and Mango (and now Strada) they have all-around velos that do well in many uses. Good aerodynamics blesses you every time you push on the pedals, and I can see why so many find that specification so important. Also your safety is enhanced by going fast, so the relative velocity differences with respect to traffic are smaller and the reaction time after detecting you is in your favor, at least for city riding.
   I used to use a PA system we developed, and thought I was getting full exercise anyway. Not so. When I visited the NL in 2008, a bit sick and jet-lagged and riding a borrowed velo, I was unable to keep up with a fast velo group. Marjolein, a 60-year-old very fit lady, drifted back to push me so I could keep up. Then I realized that I needed every scrap of exercise I could get to approach their level of fitness. I would never have been able to train and complete ROAM if I had been relying on a PA system previously, unless of course I had a reliable such PA system in my Quest. But I am the sailing type that disdains power assist for personal use, so have to be content with what my body can do. Also I refuse to carry around the extra weight of motor and batteries that I don’t really need. I go for a lightweight velo.

What I have set my sights on is a practical suburban human powered alternate transportation vehicle to be used by average folks to do their shopping and running errands in the 2 to 5 mile radius. Average speed 14 mph. These design limits give the opportunity to come up with a viable vehicle.

........How true this is. But I look at the fact that the bare trike business is booming. Although adding a shell of some kind may not be ideal it does change a trike into a vehicle, a vehicle that is first of all not seasonably limited, has weather protection, some crash protection, more visible to cars etc. This will change the consciousness of the trike rider into using the vehicle more as local alternate transportation rather than just recreation

.> The covered trike needs a lot of cargo space. I’m not sure how much the Velocity Velo body has. Maybe it is adequate. One can hope that it will change the consciousness.

Second, by being seen by the public these vehicles will affect their awareness. I see and hear a change in the publics response to my VM over a 7 year period. They more often comment now - it doesn't use gas, its good for the environment, and its good for the health of the rider, etc. 
I am hearing more and more happy - I like what you are doing horn honks - from drivers. 
The publics environmental awareness is changing. We need a viable practical vehicle. 
It doesn't need all the wish list of advanced features.

I designed my present VM 8 years ago coming from a long background with streamliners and the thrill of speed.
What's important to me now is weather protection (head in), light weight, quiet, ease of access to decent cargo space, some amount of suspension, small physical size for parking reasons. Aerodynamics is there but further down the list. 
This is accomplishable given what we know. 
In another 10 years more viable vehicles will be developed. 

As regards head-in, Frans van der Merwe’s Pterovelo used a breathing tube to minimize inside condensation on ROAM. Others have done the same thing. Mary Arneson and her Cab-Bikes didn’t have this setup, AFAIK. It would not be a big deal to add it. One of my customers living in northern Idaho came up with it on his own. The Dutch aversion to it is to some extent justified by the dangers of limiting your visual field in any way. If the big vehicles I share the roads with misjudge my intentions or fail to see me they could crush me and hardly notice it. I’m quite sure they wouldn’t even get a citation for doing it. Just a hint of a shadow or an unexpected light beam crossing my peripheral vision can scare the hell out of me. It is one of the problems of the reclined position combined with age that I can’t turn my head far enough to see backwards. Even now I sometimes pull out not knowing for sure, but estimating from the lack of vehicle noise that it must be safe. Mirrors have limitations too. Sometimes my mirrors show nothing, but somebody pulls out and accelerates fast and passes me when I had no idea they were there until I hear them. So limiting sound cues by enclosing the cockpit is also a worry. Maybe I need a rear-view camera and dash-mounted screen for safety.

.....Yes, but some method of sharing ideas is very important. Look at the advancements made after the birth of the IHPVA in 1975 - which eventually lead to present day Velomobiles

. >Yes, but John Abbey states an obvious worry, why should I share my ideas so somebody else can profit from them instead of me. At the current level of awareness on the hupi list, this is probably not a problem, but it is a worry.

In some ways its less a technology issue than a change in consciousness as to why and how we use these vehicles. Requiring the wish list of advanced features hints of 19th and 20th century thinking where the Earths energy and resources were thought to be limitless. Efficiency - doing more with less - is the 21st century password. HPVs are up with the efficiency of railroad trains and super tankers.

There is indeed a great discrepancy between the 142 velo crowd of mostly Quests and Mangos (and Stradas) at the 2011 Olliebollentocht a few days ago, and the local bike scene. I am still in the “watch that roadie recede in the rear-view mirror” crowd. Even as old and slow as I am, I now have a carbon fiber Quest that I ordered for ROAM. The original was crushed in shipment and I only got a replacement in November. Going fast is still important to me. Also, since my friend John Abbey is living with us, working for VMUSA, and riding his velo with me, and is much younger and faster, I need to have some chance of keeping up with him, or at least not getting so far behind that he gives up on me. 
   Ymte uses a cargo trailer on a Quest for bulky packages. That way he still has the advantage of a fast vehicle when he drops the trailer. I tend to use our car for that, even though I have a cargo trailer, since I rarely need it and sometimes the car is necessary for the trip anyway. My body fat content was 18.7% according to my Tanita sports scale before ROAM, but dropped to 5% afterwards. It is now up to 10%, and unless I ride a lot more will keep going up. I am fighting to retain my fitness but seem to be losing the battle. I just don’t have time to ride enough to stabilize it anymore.

Notice for one how I have skirted the issue of funding.

We had a chance to visit Chet Kyle on our way up to Portland for ROAM. He had a crash due to a fawn jumping in front of him a year ago or so, and is recovered but not quite the same. He has cleaned out his office and cut down or cut out his consulting on bicycle speed. I guess we both have to look forward to that sort of thing, unfortunately. I will keep at it as long as possible.

John Tetz 

David Eggleston
--
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Paths to future velos

David M. Eggleston — 2012-01-06T17:10:40

Hi John,

Thanks for your detailed reply. It is good to be back in contact with you. In view of your long experience and accomplishments I place a high value on what you say. And we old farts need to stick together!

David

From: JOHN TETZ 
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 8:04 PM
To: David M. Eggleston 
Subject: Re: [Velomobile] Velomobile design

David Eggleston

Thank you for giving your experienced and wide ranging overview on various VM issues. Very valuable information. 
I agree we have a lot yet to learn but we have accomplished a lot in these last 10 years of VM development.

......Too much of a range is asking a lot of a design, given the power source is so weak. Seems to me that honing a design for a specific area of need is more apt to be accomplished. Cars range from small to large with few to many features to accomplish various needs.

   I admit to being a fan of VM.nl and their design and manufacturing work. In the Quest and Mango (and now Strada) they have all-around velos that do well in many uses. Good aerodynamics blesses you every time you push on the pedals, and I can see why so many find that specification so important. Also your safety is enhanced by going fast, so the relative velocity differences with respect to traffic are smaller and the reaction time after detecting you is in your favor, at least for city riding.
   I used to use a PA system we developed, and thought I was getting full exercise anyway. Not so. When I visited the NL in 2008, a bit sick and jet-lagged and riding a borrowed velo, I was unable to keep up with a fast velo group. Marjolein, a 60-year-old very fit lady, drifted back to push me so I could keep up. Then I realized that I needed every scrap of exercise I could get to approach their level of fitness. I would never have been able to train and complete ROAM if I had been relying on a PA system previously, unless of course I had a reliable such PA system in my Quest. But I am the sailing type that disdains power assist for personal use, so have to be content with what my body can do. Also I refuse to carry around the extra weight of motor and batteries that I don’t really need. I go for a lightweight velo.

What I have set my sights on is a practical suburban human powered alternate transportation vehicle to be used by average folks to do their shopping and running errands in the 2 to 5 mile radius. Average speed 14 mph. These design limits give the opportunity to come up with a viable vehicle.

........How true this is. But I look at the fact that the bare trike business is booming. Although adding a shell of some kind may not be ideal it does change a trike into a vehicle, a vehicle that is first of all not seasonably limited, has weather protection, some crash protection, more visible to cars etc. This will change the consciousness of the trike rider into using the vehicle more as local alternate transportation rather than just recreation

.> The covered trike needs a lot of cargo space. I’m not sure how much the Velocity Velo body has. Maybe it is adequate. One can hope that it will change the consciousness.

Second, by being seen by the public these vehicles will affect their awareness. I see and hear a change in the publics response to my VM over a 7 year period. They more often comment now - it doesn't use gas, its good for the environment, and its good for the health of the rider, etc. 
I am hearing more and more happy - I like what you are doing horn honks - from drivers. 
The publics environmental awareness is changing. We need a viable practical vehicle. 
It doesn't need all the wish list of advanced features.

I designed my present VM 8 years ago coming from a long background with streamliners and the thrill of speed.
What's important to me now is weather protection (head in), light weight, quiet, ease of access to decent cargo space, some amount of suspension, small physical size for parking reasons. Aerodynamics is there but further down the list. 
This is accomplishable given what we know. 
In another 10 years more viable vehicles will be developed. 

As regards head-in, Frans van der Merwe’s Pterovelo used a breathing tube to minimize inside condensation on ROAM. Others have done the same thing. Mary Arneson and her Cab-Bikes didn’t have this setup, AFAIK. It would not be a big deal to add it. One of my customers living in northern Idaho came up with it on his own. The Dutch aversion to it is to some extent justified by the dangers of limiting your visual field in any way. If the big vehicles I share the roads with misjudge my intentions or fail to see me they could crush me and hardly notice it. I’m quite sure they wouldn’t even get a citation for doing it. Just a hint of a shadow or an unexpected light beam crossing my peripheral vision can scare the hell out of me. It is one of the problems of the reclined position combined with age that I can’t turn my head far enough to see backwards. Even now I sometimes pull out not knowing for sure, but estimating from the lack of vehicle noise that it must be safe. Mirrors have limitations too. Sometimes my mirrors show nothing, but somebody pulls out and accelerates fast and passes me when I had no idea they were there until I hear them. So limiting sound cues by enclosing the cockpit is also a worry. Maybe I need a rear-view camera and dash-mounted screen for safety.

.....Yes, but some method of sharing ideas is very important. Look at the advancements made after the birth of the IHPVA in 1975 - which eventually lead to present day Velomobiles

. >Yes, but John Abbey states an obvious worry, why should I share my ideas so somebody else can profit from them instead of me. At the current level of awareness on the hupi list, this is probably not a problem, but it is a worry.

In some ways its less a technology issue than a change in consciousness as to why and how we use these vehicles. Requiring the wish list of advanced features hints of 19th and 20th century thinking where the Earths energy and resources were thought to be limitless. Efficiency - doing more with less - is the 21st century password. HPVs are up with the efficiency of railroad trains and super tankers.

There is indeed a great discrepancy between the 142 velo crowd of mostly Quests and Mangos (and Stradas) at the 2011 Olliebollentocht a few days ago, and the local bike scene. I am still in the “watch that roadie recede in the rear-view mirror” crowd. Even as old and slow as I am, I now have a carbon fiber Quest that I ordered for ROAM. The original was crushed in shipment and I only got a replacement in November. Going fast is still important to me. Also, since my friend John Abbey is living with us, working for VMUSA, and riding his velo with me, and is much younger and faster, I need to have some chance of keeping up with him, or at least not getting so far behind that he gives up on me. 
   Ymte uses a cargo trailer on a Quest for bulky packages. That way he still has the advantage of a fast vehicle when he drops the trailer. I tend to use our car for that, even though I have a cargo trailer, since I rarely need it and sometimes the car is necessary for the trip anyway. My body fat content was 18.7% according to my Tanita sports scale before ROAM, but dropped to 5% afterwards. It is now up to 10%, and unless I ride a lot more will keep going up. I am fighting to retain my fitness but seem to be losing the battle. I just don’t have time to ride enough to stabilize it anymore.

Notice for one how I have skirted the issue of funding.

We had a chance to visit Chet Kyle on our way up to Portland for ROAM. He had a crash due to a fawn jumping in front of him a year ago or so, and is recovered but not quite the same. He has cleaned out his office and cut down or cut out his consulting on bicycle speed. I guess we both have to look forward to that sort of thing, unfortunately. I will keep at it as long as possible.

John Tetz 

David Eggleston
--
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Velomobile design

David M. Eggleston — 2012-01-03T19:02:28

Following John Tetz’s plea for us to get together and work on the future of velomobiles, I’ve enjoyed reading your contributions. Here is my two cents worth.
From an engineering point of view, velomobile design has to start out conceptually with a list of specifications that the final vehicle must satisfy. Nobody seems to do this on paper, but one can back-figure what the specifications are that the final vehicle satisfies or fails to satisfy when it is tested. Velomobile design has to deal with almost all of the problems that must be solved in the design of a small car. It is a long list, but speed, low noise, cushy ride, weather and crash protection, stability and handling qualities, the ability to stop quickly and safely, power efficiency, ease of ingress and egress, cost, convenience, ease of maintenance, cost of parts, etc. are some of the requirements. Velos are used for commuting, shopping, long tours, recreational day rides, running errands, racing, etc. Some machines are designed specifically for racing, with little or no thought given to other uses. Some velos are quite capable of a whole range of tasks, while others are best for only one or two types of use. An all-around velo has a better chance of commercial success than one that is only good for a few things. Owning many velos is too expensive. Carrying bulky objects is best done with a specialized vehicle or a velo with a cargo trailer.
You can fairly easily put an aero body on an existing unsuspended trike, but you are likely to end up with many difficulties, including body attachments to the trike, noise of thin shells vibrating, and many others. Chief among these may be that when the aerodynamics are great and you can go really fast, not having a suspension can be mighty uncomfortable. It is likely to result in the rider getting lots of reasons to upgrade to a well-designed (and expensive) velomobile. So you can “cheat” on any of the design requirements up to a point, but the ones that riders want will come back to haunt you if your velo doesn’t have them.
I harken back to the day that the Tempelman shop opened in Dronten in the Netherlands. Johan Vrielink, chief of Flevobike, came up, put his hand on my shoulder, and said “Building velomobiles is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.” Over the years, I have come to realize the truth of this statement. There have been tremendous numbers of dream velos that never come to fruition because of this fact. Getting a design “frozen” and getting it into production is quite difficult. The market is ephemeral so raising money for a big production run is really hard. All VM manufacturers hope that Ford or General Motors or Toyota will never understand the wonderful future for the world full of velomobiles, and so far, the companies never have.
This means that a velomobile association could combine resources and apply the least expensive of auto design techniques, software, and testing to improve velomobiles. There is a broad range of technologies applicable to velos. You can perhaps imagine a design group equipped with all the latest computer design tools and testing capabilities switching their focus from engine-powered cars to human-powered cars.
Velomobiles need structural analysis, braking and stability studies, suspension improvements, electrical system upgrades, and production manufacturing techniques to lower their cost, among other things. We can go after the “low-hanging” fruit, as it were. In the wings are ideas for tandem velos, special cargo trailers and associated velo attachments, power trailers, power assists, and a host of other technical issues that need design, development, testing and evaluation, production expertise, and marketing.
A great deal of experience was gained with the velos that were used on ROAM . Stability with regard to rumble strips, braking for descending mountain passes, gearing that allows high speeds downhill but very low speeds up steep hills, shifting systems that enable going smoothly from your highest gear downhill to your lowest gear going up the next steep hill, drive trains that do not drop chains, even when backing, etc. Many of us spent much time replacing brake drum plates, brake disks, tires and tubes, and other parts. We had four velos roll over, mostly on rumble strips. Nobody was badly hurt, but one was damaged so much that the rider retired and went home. Another velo was put out of commission by a deep pothole in the Chicago area, and one was knocked over by an SUV in D.C. I could have a whole discussion (along with Frederick) regarding incidents and our experiences with the “ground loop” instability of tadpole trikes. Following advice on tires and rims by Ian Sims, David Gordon Wilson, and Ymte Sybrandy we at VMUSA opted to use Marathon Plus tires on the rear of our tadpole trikes. They are thick and heavy and hard to mount, which is just what is needed so they don’t blow out and tend to stay on the rims even when deflated. Nobody will use them for racing or very fast recreational rides, but they are great for safety.
I look forward to working with others that can contribute to solving some of these problems. I see my most immediate contributions in the areas of dynamic simulation, vehicle systems testing and analysis, work towards improved suspension and braking, and drive train improvements. The work of Bill Patterson and others should be of great help in these efforts.
I guess we will have to rely on our own ideas and resources for low-budget design and development paths. The realization of all the things we want for velos would cost millions, and it is not clear that such funds will ever be available. The cost spectrum ranges from about $4000 to $25,000 for velos now extant. Prices for materials and hardware are steadily increasing. The goal of inexpensive velos that have the advanced features we want is going to be really , really difficult. Low cost velos presuppose major investments in design, development, testing, manufacturing, and marketing. Who will find the money is a big question. And only those project managers that are real velo riders and racers with be able to “thread the needle” through all the development and commercial pitfalls to get a successful and long-term valued product.

David

David M. Eggleston
VelomobileUSA, LLC
Midland, TX
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Check email

David M. Eggleston — 2012-01-02T21:49:11

Did you get this message?

David
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What do you consider a velomobile?

Chris Jordan — 2011-12-08T18:59:17

What do you consider a velomobile?  In 1999 or so the first description I saw was fully enclosed, so I believed only that and only that until 2005 when I had to cut out a Flintstone Hole to back up.  Then I understood the "heads out" or different frame concepts.  Mine was a streamliner concept with 2 Zzipper fairings ("chopper" model to reach from nose to tail) more like a mini-submarine on 3 wheels; all  taped up with that shiny silver tape with a little slit for the back wheel.  In 2009 I cut the cockpit open and unbolted the roof making the velomobile look more like a rolling bathtub 4 inches high.  I liked the wide open feeling, appearance, and view so I left it off until 2011.  This part of central coastal California has not accepted velomobiles.  Even now!  I'm only in 3 Yahoo groups at this time- including Recumbent City and PeoplePoweredVehicles groups.  
 
__Chris Jordan__
*countersTrike*
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What do you consider a velomobile?

mark McWilliams — 2011-12-08T17:56:40

I am car free in central California. I do not have to deal with snow but do have to deal with rain which is sometime freezing and sometimes heavy i.e. up to an half an inch an hour, yet I am able to ride in the rain and cold and stay relatively dry and warm on my ATP Vision R42 with a Zipper fairing and a home made "rain coat" that attaches to the fairing and wraps around me to protect me from wet weather or extreme *(20 degrees Fahrenheit is about as cold as it ever gets here) cold. Someone once said of the bike that it was a convertible i.e. a rag top .

The site , hupi.org, does not seem to have the ability to upload pictures and I never open any email attachments unless I have to so I would not expect anyone else to either but I do belong to some yahoo groups that do. Is this something that might interest you or others in the group? If so do any of you in the group belong to any of the following yahoo groups : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vision-bent-owners/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RECUMBENT_RIDERS_OF_SACRAMENTO/ , or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarFree/

I have images of my bike in those groups and if anyone reading this belongs to any of those, i.e. most likely carfree, it would be fairly easy to pick out my bike from the many albums.
If there is interest in my version of an automobile substitute I would be glad to attach images to future e-mails for you to risk opening.

The car free yahoo group album needs a few more recent images but if you belong

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarFree/photos/album/1988420494/pic/159614997/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

I write descriptions when I post images because even though an image is worth a thousand words a few words goes a long way to helping describe what I wanted to show in the image and even why sometimes.
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Problems with velomobiles

JW Stephens — 2011-12-07T03:32:00

Frederik Van De Walle lays out his thoughts on integrating velomobiles
into the cycling infrastructure in his Senior Thesis, which I've
put here: http://www.lobosolo.com/fvdw/Velomobile4SusTrans.pdf

I see additional problems in the USA, in the safety realm. Tricycles
are inherently safe only in a much smaller envelope than North
Americans are used to. Our famous last words here are "Hey guys, watch
this ..." and we all know this is why we don't let yahoos into our
velomobiles. I bet it wouldn't be a month before someone rolled one,
just off the dealer's lot, on a test ride. Those of us who have bought
them so far have been through a learning progression, the value of
which is incredible. Mine was P-38, Trice, Windcheetah, Versatile.

The Bentrider online report about the rollover on the trike just
reinforces what I posted earlier about the inherent danger of losing
that rear contact point on a tadpole layout. For me, on the
Windcheetah, about 40 mph, blew out the sidewall of the rear tire,
which spun the vehicle (always anti-clockwise ... I wonder for you
guys south of the equator, do yours spin clockwise?) and before I
could cogitate, once the vehicle turns 90 degrees to its inertial
vector, it >will< roll. Reliably.

Elrey in Littleton
Versatile Nr. 42
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Homemade velomobiles

Terry Rouse — 2011-12-06T23:46:35

I have two home made velomobiles. One is a tadpole trike with a chromoly tube 
space frame with a small amount of front suspension. The other is a delta 
leaning trike with front wheel drive. The leaning aspect improves the cornering 
considerably, but the two rear wheels stick out into the airflow and create a 
fair amount of drag. I have a retractable brass pin so that the lean can be 
locked out when you come up to a stop sign or are starting off. It is also 
helpful when climbing steep hills as you don't have to balance. I have laid it 
on its side a number of times trying to get the tilt lock to work correctly. 
When transitioning from locked to unlocked tilt there is a noticeable change in 
the handling that requires some getting used to. Overall I am not sure the tilt 
is worth the bother, but cornering at speed is more fun than on my tadpole 
trike. I plan to fool around with it a bit more before moving on. Both of the 
bodies are made of coroplast. After 2-3 years it gets a bit ragged but it is 
easy to fabricate. I like the concept of the Tri sled with the rotationally 
molded body. I think that has the possibility of lowering the cost. Most of the 
velomobiles are just way too expensive.  

Terry Rouse
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Propositions

Ladislav Blaha — 2011-12-06T20:17:04

Glad to see activity in this list and glad to see progress on project of
OS velo.
I have read all the texts and am a bit sad how general and nothing
detailed they are.
So let me give my two cents.

I am fresh user of Alleweder A3 velomobile (see
http://www.lehokolo.com/view.php?cisloclanku=2011102801) and need to say:
- protection - what I like much is weather protection, even in subzero
temperatures I feel comfortably
- speed - velo really has better coasting and superb downhill, uphill
nothing great, much worse then any bike I have, but acceptable, I was
able to climb all my local hils.
- cargo capacity - poor - I am used to brompton bike with their great
front c-bag (see
http://www.prahounakole.cz/2010/03/nakladni-kola-iv-ladova-cesta-k-xtracycle/)
and occasionaly with bike trailer (see http://www.bikerev.com/) there
is almost nothing what I am not able to move with this combo. Alleweder
cannot accept even bag small as my brompton C-bag. It has some cargo
capacity but oddly shaped, you can load only quite narrow cargo. For
bulky items and my boys and wife I use xtracycle.

So I vote for much bigger cargo space in velo. My need is, that velo
should accept both - my brompton bike and my brompton C-bag as cargo. It
looks strange and radical, but it is what I can easily move with my car
and if velo should be replacement for my car then it should accept cargo
like this (btw nothing extra bulky :-) ). If the velo could have
designed clever way how to add even more cargo, better. My bike for real
cargo is xtracycle. System of wide loaders and long loaders of xtracycle
hardly could be overcome. (see
http://www.xtracycle.com/cargo-bicycles/cargo-bike-accessories/wideloader-load-shelves.html)
Bike has mounting points for extra platform used for even more cargo.

So my wishes for velo are:
- as low as alleweder
- open head as alleweder
- cargo trunk as big as asphalt tretboot of harald winkler (see Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX1ko9e0kJ4 or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMH45oJvAZU)
- or cargo trunk as big as velocar from lightfoot recumbents (see
http://www.lightfootcycles.com/velomobiles_from_Lightfoot_Cycles.php)
- xtracycle wide and long loaders compatible (see
http://www.xtracycle.com/cargo-bicycles/cargo-bike-accessories/wideloader-load-shelves.html
again)
- steel frame made from jackels ala atomic zombie (see
http://www.atomiczombie.com/main.aspx)
- foam fairing as john tetz does (see
http://www.recumbents.com/mars/pages/proj/tetz/manual/0intro.html) or
coroplast fairing (see
http://www.lightfootcycles.com/velomobiles_from_Lightfoot_Cycles.php again)
- what I am not sure is if the velo has to be suspended or not, probably
so, then let it has proven mcpherson setup of alleweder, but my
experience with folding bikes says that maybe tires like schwalbe big
apple is enough.

Everything complex is already done, technologies are ready made, we
should just pick up these proved technologies together and mix it in new
fresh shape.

Ladia Blaha
www.velorama.cz

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My suggestion

JW Stephens — 2011-12-06T15:49:16

To make velomobiles into practical vehicles for the masses I believe
that they need to be all-wheel drive, and for that to happen I think
the best way is with an electronic drive train. That means an
efficient, lightweight pedal generator, a 3D sensor system, a virtual
differential and lightweight, efficient hub motors at the corners. The
shape of the bodywork and the structure of the monocoque are well
evolved. The drive train work has been pioneered by Andreas Fuchs (
http://www.hupi.org/HPeJ/0015/0015.html ).

Of course, YMMV.
Elrey, Littleton, CO
Versatile Nr. 42

back on track?

Paolo Bartoli — 2011-12-06T08:19:02

Wow, I almost forgot about this list… I'm glad that John is proposing some new ideas to develop.
I'll be reading the proposal from JohTetz with much interest.

Paolo Bartoli
Bartolidesign studio associato di architettura e design
paolo< at >bartolidesign.it / www.bartolidesign.it / 039 387225
skype: paolobartoli
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turtle test

Brian Wilson — 2011-12-06T05:11:28

this message should have a picture of a baby turtle attached to it

archives working

Brian Wilson — 2011-12-06T04:45:36

testing attachments again

testing

Brian Wilson — 2011-12-06T04:43:25

just testing the list software...

Collaborative VM project

JOHN TETZ — 2011-12-04T02:11:52

Fournier Luc from California and I have been working over the last month or two to form a VM Collaboration.  There is one in Europe so we thought we should have one in North America. 

 

The idea is to have a group of people with various HPV backgrounds to share ideas in the direction of  advanced Velomobiles.  A lot of you guys have been around for a while and have a strong base of  information that might be real handy to share. 

 

Luc is more interested in the business end and the market place, and fast V Ms, where I am more interested in practical vehicles for local alternate transportation for average folks. I'm looking at the next 10 year development in a area that has not been investigated very much yet has a huge potential market. 

 

We have about 7 people involved but would like to have a bit more - specially people with  hands on experiences.  

 

I had forgotten about this HPV  Velomobile list thinking it no longer existed until it popped up again. 

 

If any of you are interested I could  Email a 4 part package consisting of 

Project Invitation, Background on Velomobiles, Collaborative Charter, and Practical HPVs.  Each essentially one page documents. 

 

Or I could attaché them to this HPV Velomobile list. . 

 

John Tetz 
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No winter here yet!

Chris Jordan — 2011-12-02T22:56:54

Winter?  Winter rain has not arrived here yet in the daytime.  Nights are cold.  About 4 years ago at Spezi was a velomobile with almost the same material and design I used in 2004.  It had the same fiberglass/kevlar colour with no paint and had the same removable canopy as mine. I may use this winter just putting everything back together and trim the fairing lower like that one.  I do not have a workshop here but I am moving back someday!  Tried and true shape.
 
__Chris Jordan__
*countersTrike*
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Winter...

Rob Hague — 2011-12-02T06:42:03

It is winter, a cold frosty morning...
But I have my 2012 velomobile to look forward to, on order ready for collection in May 2012. So time to plan for the ride home and where I'll be taking her after that.
This time I'm waiting on a sub 20kg carbon-honeycombe Go-One Evo-K.

Rob
wrhpv.com
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VM activity?

JOHN TETZ — 2011-12-02T02:36:48

Is there any activity on this Velomobile list?

John Tetz 
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(no subject)

Gianmario Cella — 2010-08-01T17:50:12


Inviato da iPad
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