gmane.culture.transportation.humanpowered.boats

Sounding off on the 40 % bit

2008-08-28T03:39:35

Attention all readers, If you stick with a "constant" that you think may apply to all nature you may run a risk and come across as being a dufuss (dufiss?). Ther ARE contants that occur in nature (like Plank's constant or G) and two of the most common constants in nature both apply to what we're doing here. Anyone want to guess what they are? One of them is arguably the most common... Hint: one applies to anything that oscillates; the other is involved in the solutions of differential equations and pops up in trancendental functions. Anyone want to guess? Anyway the "dufiss_risk" is trying to paste a constant onto a ratio of monohull to catamaran. Especially without any mention of initial conditions. Are the hulls like bathtubs? Are they as long as they structurally can be? Are we talking about power? Speed? Are there any other hull parameters ? Like the ability to turn? What about hull wave interference and how far they are apart vs. how much structural weight for the catamaran? Next exercise will be jumping to conclusions.....Ready.....BEGIN, ...........and one and two and..... The last thing I have to sayt on this subject is that after all the sophist crazy-talk, nobody has yet mentioned that the fastest time in an IHPVA/ Hydrobowl type flying start time trap is held by "close to perfection" with a time of eighteen seconds and some change for 100 meters by a pedal powered propeller boat. Perhaps a short-term-archive, long-term-chatterer would like to tell us what type of boat she is!!!!! Yup. Close to Perfection is a catamaran. jake **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)

V11J

Rick Willoughby — 2008-08-09T13:59:38

I posted some pictures of my latest variant of the V11 hull on the bottom of this page: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23345&page=6 The boat hull is made with glass/epoxy on 3mm Klegecell foam using the old hull as a male plug. Total weight is 23kg. It has twin "dipping" rudders that I am pleased with. Rick Willoughby

(unknown)

Rick Willoughby — 2008-08-05T21:52:47

Rick Willoughby rickwill-bzGI/hKkdgQnC9Muvcwxkw< at >public.gmane.org 03 9796 2415 0419 104 821

Mono vs cat (both optimized)chart?

Rick Willoughby — 2008-08-04T21:37:57

Larry Too many options for a chart. Also I an update of Godzilla that produces very interesting monohulls that work well when operated below hull speed. So I can nor produce better shape monos with a length constraint. They are very odd shapes that I am trying to understand. Rick Willoughby r

Hpv-boat Archived files

2008-08-04T18:20:09

If anyone is interested, here is a link to a web archive server that has a lot of the early hpv-boat forum discussions: http://web.archive.org/web/20050403170308/www.ihpva.org/pipermail/hpv-boats/ It doesn't seem to have everything but there are a lot of discussions available. Also the server seems to get bogged down occassionally but try again in a few minutes. It's a great source for finding old web pages. Here is the link to the archive server: http://www.archive.org/index.php I also have about 2000 old posts going back to September of 2005 if someone needs specific information on a subject. Bruce Plazyk

gmane boat link

Rick Willoughby — 2008-08-04T00:13:21

Peter Go to this link: feed://rss.gmane.org/messages/excerpts/ gmane.culture.transportation.humanpowered.boats The old IHPVA site is no longer supported and we seem to have lost a lot of history. The gmane link has some data. I have started a pedal powered boat thread at www.boatdesign.net. It is a very good site. Just register and away you go. You can post images and video on that site. It has a huge data resource. I have been on the journey of understanding for about 5 years now and am happy to pass on what I have learnt. I have spent a lot of my life on water for recreation and some work but I have not had as much pleasure as I get from my various pedalled craft. I think it is a largely untapped frontier of development. Hope you find it enjoyable. You have to dare to be different to get satisfaction from it. So there are no dumb ideas or questions. Rick Willoughby

Efficiency & Marketability

Rick Willoughby — 2008-08-03T22:27:37

Larry < I don't imagine myself, with this ramble, to be telling most members of this group anything they don't know, ...only to be speaking out for more consistent balance in appraisal,... for recognition and keeping-in-mind of the fact that efficiency, as measured by speed-for-effort, is simply one-of, not THE consideration when judging a proposed design, ...unless the activity-scope is narrowed to racing. > I do not disagree with what you have to say. I have both cat and mono. Horses for courses. Not sure if you read Pete's web site. It is directed at efficiency in the narrower sense of speed for power. The comment on the Rocat is based on posts from Christopher Laughton some time ago. I believe it is not widely known that catamarans suffer a 40% power disadvantage. I also have read a race report from a Rocat owner that indicated he was not initially aware he would be giving away so much to a monohull. His expectations were not met. All Hobie do is prove they have high bollard pull and they have used this as a real selling point. Most owners are recreational users just out for time on the water. On the other hand I have seen Hobie owners bitterly disappointed when they have been racing against conventional paddled canoes. My wife just loved Mike Lampi's Nauticraft. She has never tried one of my boats. I have a good understanding there are horses for courses. On the other hand I was not interested in trying the Nauticraft as I had the use of the Cadence. I will put up with the twitchiness for the ability to hit 10+mph. I was simply stating facts about efficiency with respect to hulls and propulsion systems. Not saying any particular system is ideal to the exclusion of others. Rick Willoughby

oar+some pedal paddled cataraman

Peter Howard — 2008-08-02T17:50:02

Hi All, Oar+Some is a boat concept and design project. In essence it is a human powered (you pedal it), catamaran designed for speed. Think of it as a top notch, high performance touring bicycle for water. Computer models, virtual video and discussion here: http://peterhoward42.blogspot.com/2008/03/oarsome-virtual-photo-album.html Regards Pete Howard

24 hour HPB record

Greg Kolodziejzyk — 2008-07-22T22:48:50

Hi - not sure how many of you have been following my latest progress, so I thought I would give you a quick update for anyone interested. I hit 16 kph (10 mph) the other day, and finished a 5 hour circuit on the lake here with 11.4 km/hr average speed (7 mph, 35 miles) http://www.adventuresofgreg.com/HPB/uploaded_images/P7200014-728295.JPG More pictures and a video of the 10 mph run here: http://www.adventuresofgreg.com/HPB/2008/07/fairing-test-10-mph.html Greg K

Displacement hydrofoils

2008-07-19T16:50:49

Most hydrofoil designs have relatively thin bladed foils for "flying" mode and auxiliary floats for "floating" mode. Does anyone know of any designs that have fatter foils that make flying more of a cross between the two modes? If so, how is the overall performance? Could this be an option for a long distance hydrofoil design that wouldn't require superhuman strength and endurance? Michael Lampi

Open Sourcery iii codes

2008-07-16T22:54:40

Bob, all, I have been working on a building for too long now and there are good and bad about codes. The good is that it sifts out some problems in safety , corner cutting, etc. Good for safety. I make sure as best as I can that I'm anal about quality. If the code specifies a certain structural size or insulation amount, I usually end up a notch or two over the spec .It is not so bad to have a staircase a little wider (carry up hydrofoil) or make the place a little less expensive to keep warm, or have the place jiggle less when you jump up and down on the second floor. Also good for not having to worry about a hog farm next to your condo complex, a dog kennel (constant barking) next door... Bad thing is the idea of having to report to someone about all your stuff sounds sort of a combination of buraeucratic and dictitorial... Oh well.... jake **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Open Sourcery ii Drive Unit Foot Ergo Specifications for Catamaran, Proa, etc.

2008-07-16T22:38:24

Giu - 2 Parameters may include ergonometrics for the feet. In your site, the model sitting on the Talssociclo is qualified as very OK (grin), but there have to be some parameters you have to address. Heel clearance: if it's too low, cyclists who want to stay dry won't in wether that you could still navigate in. In other words, it is wavy out, but not enough to be scared about, or force you to come ashore. The height of the heels above the water should address this. It is amazing how many boats I've seen and ridden have not addressed this tradeoff. OTOH, if the pedal bracket is too high the butt placement will get driven up too far and the CG will be too high and so on. The relationship should be Water to heel at the lowest part of the pedal stroke, centering that to the pedal bracket, pedal bracket to the seat bottom! Which indirectly influences the width of the hulls! Mount Standardization. There should be a vertical-plane spec. that includes a tolerance to being vertical and perpendicular to the seat. In other words, dimensionally how close, how far off can it be from being vertical, and how close does the seat have to be to being horizontal. In the old days, I had terrible pain from not being lined up with the pedals closely enough. Now I use machine tolerances. Further, there should be some kind if indexing method to keep the drive in spec. I use vertical plane with a curvy edge that absorbs the extra real estate that the drive needs for strength . There is a vertical channel in my mount but is for bolt clearances particular to my drive. The Carignani Kickup parallels traditions going back to the first outboard motor (Evenrude), and is an increadibly innovative pedal powered boat component. It allows for kick up,relates to the cyclist being easy to clean out weeds when they're cought, has few parts, is light, and has clearance with minimalistic material and weight. The one in your latest version may have the pivoting axis too far down and too close. Problem here may be that if she (your model that is) pushes too hard on the pedals the unit may kick fwd. If that is not a problem, overhung forces on the bolt bracket WILL be! And here is a real challenge. The cross bar (aiko) may be too close to the path of the foot in a pedal stroke. I would recomend that there be at least three, maybe 5 inches space around any tow path (heel paths against a floor need 6.5 inches from a size 14 shoe (i.e. HUGE heel), for butt-pedal bracket relationships in our type seating. The best example for this may be akin to running through a doorway 1,5 inches above your head as fast as possible. Your natural instinct would be to duck. On the same token, pedalers should not encounter bars, braces, etc too close to the pedal path; these protruberances will intimidate them too much (there is already enough intimidation ;-) ). I may sound prickly here but if you want a standard that will last, all those pissy little details will have to be worked beyond any doubt. My solution for the counterbalance problem would be to make the mount bracket up high right under the pedal bracket part of the drive unit. I solve any rotation problems by using 4 or 5 bolts, but you could take it to some sort of ledge just as easy. Pedal path clearance dimensions should take you back to an aiko with an arm growing out of it that lets your feet/toes plunge through, kicks up and has super amount of side to side torque absorbtion, both with the axis in line with the aiko and *SKEWED FOR WHEN THE DRIVE UNIT HITS AN OBJECT FROM THE SIDE!!!. This means that the arm should be torsionally strong enough to flip the boat in lever relationship with the drive, instead of breaking off! The arm should grow right into where the pedal bracket is so there is no overhung forces in the pedal-pushing. Note: Tradeooff: This flipping requirement may dictate narrowing the hulls some; wave interference at speed will dictate widening them. On OP-1 (Outrigger, pedaled, one seat) the amma is obviously too far to be included in this spec, but the main hull surely is within it! So what seemed to be a very simple part has evolved to what has to be a very light very diverse multifunctioning part. The last one I made was maybe a kilo or two. Hope that clarifies with the positioning, the ergonomics and the mounting of a daggerboard drive! Don't forget to talk up the Shutt Memorial, best, jake **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Open Source Water bike

2008-07-16T22:38:18

Giuseppe, Bob, I agree that there would be varieties of a class of boat (such as a HP catamaran), and it would be good to establish a group of PARAMETERS, variables in the design, and PRIORITIZE them. What are the most important? What complete class branches can or must we come up with? i.e. a catamaran pack boat is one that is important enough to pursue? Or one that I hear the most, speed...? I too have been introducung additional parameters (other than speed that is) to this sport. High on the list includes *habitability, comfort *ease of takedown, assembly *efficiency (the late Bill Murphy won a "captains surprise" at the race one time by having his rig rotate the most times when spun) *Well made!! Long lasting, dependable etc. *Low maintenance: I ran a hydrofoil in the '90s that took more energy to set up and keep tuned than to run. But the head-turning factor was worth it ;-) While some concepts related to open source really creep me out like politics, charlotinism, stealing of intellectual property, I have to wonder if I'm a Linous Torvolds or a Bill Gates kind of guy. (BTW, Giuseppe, You're not off the hook for goung over those issues just mentioned ;-) ). Also, there may a lot to be said about a limited partnership with well recruited talent, clear goals in mind. Discussing some of these things in the open (again) may not be like an argument in a committee (scary) but more of a concensus. I would not want to make products that no one would want to buy anyway...... See next. . . . jake **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

gmane bikelist board

Rick Willoughby — 2008-07-15T00:32:47

The gmane board seems a poor service. The history gets lost and the board goes down regularly. I suggest the HPBers take a look at: http://boatdesign.net/forums/ This seems to offer a very good alternative. There is some nonsense on the site but it provides an excellent platform. It will accept all manner of files so very easy to post photos and video clips. Very rarely goes down. Has an extensive following and a wide range of knowledge. Also as fuel prices soar there are a lot of boaties looking for less expensive ways to get on the water. Human power is gaining increasing use. Still not many convinced on the virtues of pedal power but that is something we can lead. I will start a new thread for pedal power. Rick Willoughby

Open Source Water bike

2008-07-14T20:49:51

QUESTIONS FOR GIUSEPPE: Hey guys, I would do a metaphor of boat building and inventing to musical performance. Sometimes yopu have a symphony. Lots of differing individuals with varying degrees of talent, and fur sure differing specialties. If you propose an open source, how would you treat musicians with seniority? Now for the "64.00 question": What about virtuosos? Who would conduct the symphony? There are other parallels; What about a sports team. Perhaps there are only a given number of openings on the team...? Who would coach? who would play what position? More questions later. Next subject: intellectual property jake **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Shutt Memorial Hydrobowl!!

2008-07-14T20:33:49

H T M L on the Run Dear Friends, The Elkhart race for this year is ON!! It is on July 26th. Link is here: _http://members.aol.com/jfreeent/SMHBL01.htm_ (http://members.aol.com/jfreeent/SMHBL01.htm) jake **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

New drive leg

Ian Cassell — 2008-07-10T00:41:22

Finished my drive leg and worked ok, boat was not as fast but at least it worked. It consists of an involute gear box angled at 45 deg with two universal joints connected to a 450mm prop. The boat was a bit slower than with the shaft and drive in the boat, advantage was transport and turned a lot tighter probably from having the prop in the middle and not at the end. Disadvantage was the big hole (100mm x 1000mm) to fit the drive leg, this has weakened the boat and when pedaling hard the drive wobbles a bit to the point where I sprang a few small leaks. One problem in raising the drive leg was getting the prop into the vertical position to lift it through the hole, without the outriggers I would have gone for a swim. Ian Cassell

ELKHART RACE

2008-06-30T21:19:50

Hey Everybody, Sorry for being a little too silent lately, Will come up with stuff about Giuseppe community boat and MOLOKAI. Meanwhile, the Elkhart race has just been approved! It is the SHUTT MEMORIAL HYDROBOWL in Elkhart Indiana on Jul. 26. More later, reserve the date! jake. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

Open water bike

Ian Cassell — 2008-06-13T03:55:50

Giuseppe How do your drive legs work? Do you use gears, chains, belts or whatever. To me the start point for your open water bike project should be a reliable drive leg that could be fitted to any type of boat, the variable would be a range of different propellers to suit speed and power. I am making a driveleg using an involute gear box with a 3:1 gearing, the gearbox is angled at 45 degrees with two universal joints connecting to the propeller so the prop spins vertically. My boat is a 5 metre monohull with outriggers, it has a centreboard casing for the driveleg and hopefully this should work (nearly finished). If you would like some pics let me know. Ian Cassell

The Open Waterbike Project revised

Giuseppe Carignani — 2008-06-09T09:44:31

Dear colleagues and friends I have carefully considered all your comments of The Open Waterbike Project and I have therefore revised the project and updated the website. Most of the comments made sense to me, and this shows that often strong criticism is often more useful than praise... I hope I have provided an answer to Alex et al. (who said: ...I'd really like to ask what the aim of any OpenSource boat is first, because without that I really do think it's a no-goer...) at the page, in which I tried to summarize the requirements of an Open Waterbike: http://www.openwaterbike.com/architecture/the-open-waterbike-requirements and I'd really appreciate your opinion! I'd like also to stress that racing HPVs and leisure HPVs are possibly not as far apart as Alex believes, as all the history of technological change, e.g. the history of the bycicle, shows. Finally, I'd like to comment of who said that we don't need an 'Open Waterbike' since we have already some nice mass-produced pedal-boats like the Hobie Mirage. The is like saying that we didn't need Linux since we already had that nice operating system, Microsoft's MS-Dos (and later Windows), we didn't need Wikipedia since we already had that authoritative encyclopedia, the Britannica. Well, I don't agree. Do you? Giuseppe

catamaran waterbike on the waves...

Rick Willoughby — 2008-06-08T04:13:23

Giuseppe I posted a reply to this on my travels but it did not get through. You should look at the Rocat hulls: http://www.rocat.co.uk/ You would need to mount the pod to face forward and also provide good fairing on it but the boat has proven safe in heavy conditions. There may be hulls available as I believe they stopped production. The boat would be a better performer in rough water with pedal power. Remember you are giving away a lot of performance to s stabilised single hull. The cat will require about 40% more power for the same speed as a good mono with outriggers. It is similar in basic dimensions to my V4 boat: http://www.rickwill.bigpondhosting.com/web_photos_video/video_v4.wmv It is quite safe in rough water but gets very wet because there is no fairing in front of the seat. The front cross brace punches through waves and makes it very wet. Rick Willoughby rickwill-bzGI/hKkdgQnC9Muvcwxkw< at >public.gmane.org 03 9796 2415 0419 104 821