http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative hourly 1 1901-01-01T00:00+00:00 http://gmane.org/img/gmane-25t.png http://gmane.org http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3677 <pre>https://github.com/HackerFoo/peg Not mine. - jn </pre> John Nowak 2012-04-16T14:47:27 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3645 <pre>http://evincarofautumn.blogspot.com/2012/02/why-concatenative-programming-matters.html </pre> John Nowak 2012-02-13T13:37:49 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3644 <pre>I thought this might interest some concatenative people. The virtual currency Bitcoin has a stack based scripting language built in for creating transactions. The intent was to allow extending the types of transactions (other than just "send money to address X") via scripting to allow various types of contracts, escrow, etc. Some information on the language is here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script Recently there has been discussion on adding an 'eval' feature that allows popping a program off the stack and executing it. This is similar to concatenative languages like Joy. the general proposal is here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0012 This has raised some discussion on the bitcoin development mailing list about whether this gives the scripting language too much power. Can it now be used to create loops or otherwise work around some of the existing languages constraints and subvert the bitcoin transaction system. Discussion is on this mailing list post: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=28602033 This is an interesting example of stack based languages in real world systems. Chris. </pre> Chris Double 2011-12-31T01:23:04 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3640 <pre>The Sieve of Eratosthenes has been mentioned earlier in this newsgroup, but I didn't see a solution in Joy. Here is mine: (* popen ( Q -&gt; ) starts a new task. The stdout of the current task is connected to the stdin of the new task. *) DEFINE sieve == get dup put [sieve] popen [] [get [swap mod] [put] [pop] ifte] while. DEFINE count == 2 [] [dup put succ] while. [sieve] popen count. Of course, there is no such thing as a multi-tasking version of Joy, but maybe this example shows that it worth the trouble building such a thing. Is it? </pre> Ruurd 2011-12-09T10:32:19 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3639 <pre>The Sieve has been mentioned before in this newsgroup, but I didn't see a solution in Joy. Here is my proposal. (* popen ( Q -&gt; ) </pre> Ruurd 2011-12-09T10:20:47 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3638 <pre>I've updated 5th's entry on the concatenative wiki with a (very) short description of its type system for anyone who's interested: https://concatenative.org/wiki/view/5th No, I'm not still working on it. Has been dead for years now. - jn</pre> John Nowak 2011-12-07T05:18:53 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3635 <pre>Dear Friends, my health has been going down rapidly for a while, I could no longer travel to my Uni, barely coped with looking after myself, until I decided to go into a home where I am treated exceptionally well. I got myself a computer, internet, email again with username phimvt, but provided by google (gmail). So, this is my first email to the group. La Trobe has re-organised all its web pages according to some templates imposed from above. That meant that a lot, not just mine, became disconnected and resulted in many dead links all over the web. After some quite exhausting negotiations my own pages were reconnected with a small change: the "philosophy" part of my pages is no longer operative. My homepage is now www.latrobe.edu.au/phimvt/ and the Joy pages just have "joy/" appended. I want to use this my first email to the group to do what I should have done years ago. Slava Pestov has designed and implemented his Factor language over quite some time now. The result is a most impressive piece of work. The design goes well beyond what I ever dreamed of for Joy, and the implementation is professional and clearly far superior than that of Joy. There is already a huge library for all sorts of things. And, very importantly, there are many users who are contributing in one way or another. So, Slava, this is my tribute to your work. I also want to congratulate you on your Master's. I tried to read some early bits of your thesis, but had to look up "direct sum of vector spaces", and shortly after that I just gave up. Anyhow, well done. And what should happen to Joy? With a far superior alternative around, it would be pointless for me to patch up the existing Joy either as the language or in the implementation. Besides, I am too frail now and don't have the energy for any major project. Should somebody else design a kind of Joy2? Maybe, but probably not. It would have to be significantly different from Factor to make it worthwhile. But I don't know Factor well enough to say what could be different enough for that. However, I do think that in the Joy libraries there are a few techniques (especially continuations to implement backtracking) that are useful. Maybe these should be translated into Factor. I hope all you members of the group are thriving. I'll be around again! - Manfred </pre> maggethun 2011-10-03T07:34:05 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3631 <pre>... now that La Trobe has changed its URLs? (I mean the stuff that was at: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/philosophy/phimvt/joy.html) If La Trobe dumped his stuff, I hope someone has a full copy of it. If not, I have some of it, and I'd bet that others have parts of it, so it seems likely that we could reconstruct it somewhere (perhaps with a better home page). Also, is Manfred himself still around (the last post here from him seems to have been in 2008)? I have a La Trobe e-mail address for him, but, I'm a little worried that he may not want to be bothered. Is anyone here keeping in contact with him? --Chris Cogan </pre> cpcogan 2011-05-08T23:15:49 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3628 <pre>http://llvm.org/releases/1.1/docs/Stacker.html I just found this... As of 1.1, LLVM includes as one of its primary examples a "Forth-like" language that might possibly serve as the foundation for a more complete concatenative language. It's very Forthlike, I'd say. Just in case anyone wants to start a new project :-). Personally, I'm a little busy learning the J language, which isn't concatentive but is from a remarkably different genre of languages than the conventional ones. I'm starting this now because I just found that JSoftware released it completely as free software (licensed under GPL 3), so at last I can learn a complete APL and know that I'll be able to use it effectively in my job if I want. (As a side note, someone also recently released an open source reimplementation of the related "K" language, named "Kona"; I'd start with that, but it's currently much less complete.) -Wm </pre> William Tanksley, Jr 2011-04-23T17:50:16 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3620 <pre>Just a heads up that the Joy [1] and Cat [1] wikipedia pages have been requested to be deleted by Christopher Monsanto [2]. If you have any notability information now is the time to bring it up: [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Computing#Joy_.28programming_language.29 [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_(programming_language) [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Christopher_Monsanto Chris. </pre> Chris Double 2011-02-13T23:15:04 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3576 <pre>Hello. Is this forum still alive? I haven't shown my head here for a couple of years. I'm a MA/CS major with an ongoing interest in giving concatenative languages a firmer mathematical foundation. I have a few partial results: (i) an operational semantics, (ii) a concept of &amp; application for homomorphisms, (iii) a type system. Is anyone else around here interested in this sort of research? Here's a link to my (ongoing) work, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17328602/concat/index.html </pre> Justin 2011-01-31T00:20:55 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3572 <pre>Hi All, I've been trying to view the the factor talk slides on Windows Vista 32 bit but all I see are texts on black background. Is there some setup that I have to do? Has somebody experienced this before? I am using a HP G50 notebook. Thanks, John </pre> John 2010-10-26T05:02:41 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3564 <pre>Hi. I came across this group while poking around the web looking for discussions of language-design issues. I work on www.needlebase.com, a database system of sorts that includes a path-oriented query language called Thread. Thread isn't strictly concatenative in the pure sense, as its built-in operations do take parameters, but it uses a working set similar to the way concatenative languages use the stack, and many functions (counting, math, etc.) operate in a postfix, parameterless way. So, for example, getting the difference between launch mass and empty mass for a bunch of satellites would look like this: Satellite|(..Launch Mass,Empty Mass._-) If you're interested, there's an introduction to this language at https://pub.needlebase.com/docs/ThreadManual.html. glenn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] </pre> glenn mcdonald 2010-09-29T14:47:31 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3563 <pre>Just wanted to get a bit of traffic out there to welcome the new members of the list -- and my apologies for taking so long to notice that there were pending members. This is a slow period for the list, so feel free to start a new topic talking about your own personal project. -Wm </pre> wtanksle 2010-09-28T17:11:44 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3541 <pre>I've finished initial version of the interpreter (*). Currently my evaluator works using switch statements over the deque(**) of boxes and I want to split this deque into one deque holding data and another deque holding pointer to functions: For 2 3 + Currently : Box&lt;primitive,Plus&gt;,Box&lt;float,*3&gt;,Box&lt;float,*2&gt;, Planned: Data Box&lt;float,*3&gt;,Box&lt;float,*2&gt; Code Box&lt;*PlusFloat&gt;,Box&lt;*PushFloat&gt;,Box&lt;*PushFloat&gt;, What do you think about this? Or could you suggest a better approach Slobodan (*) http://www.bitbucket.org/bobiblazeski/lateral/ (**) Future of computation </pre> Slobodan Blazeski 2010-06-20T10:08:43 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3533 <pre>I've created an interpreter for a stack language in c++: Currently it supports: - data types : int , float, char, void will add later double,enum - operations + - * / abs - define Support for scrips is approaching completion. However I'm little confused about what primitives should I offer beside the above. My implementations runs by using a DEQUE holding parsed but unevaluated syntax tree [ future of computation] and a "STACK" holding evaluated values [past of the computation]. I've ripped of Steven Apter XY (*) because that looked like the easiest to implement. Now I'm confused about what primitives should I have in the core. The ones offered by XY seems far different then classical base (swap, dup, drop, dip, cons, uncons, null, and if). Also XY offers manipulation of the return stack, or queue(**) . So what are the upsides and downsides of allowing programmer to manipulate the return stack? (*)http://www.nsl.com/k/xy/xy.htm (**) Though it looks like a deck to me: &lt;= moves the tail of the queue to the top of the stack: / prepends to the queue the item found at the top of the stack. </pre> blazeski 2010-06-14T09:10:53 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3531 <pre>I've commented before that the map fusion rule for Haskell: map f . map g == map (f . g) ... has no nice analog in Joy. I now think this may not be because Joy is stack-based, but rather because it's not stack-based enough! Because I need to for this to work, I separate quotations ("[]"), lists ("{}"), and stacks ("()"; these are just first class stacks similar to lists but heterogeneous) into separate data types. I believe this is a good idea regardless; see previous posts. Currently, 'cons' and 'uncons' have the following semantics (where "'a" denotes a single element of any type and "X" denotes zero or more elements): 'a {X} cons == {'a X} {'a X} uncons == 'a {X} I'm proposing a small change; the idea is that 'cons' can only add a stack to a list; it is an error to attempt to add anything else (e.g. "1 {} cons"): (Y) {X} cons == {(Y) X} {(Y) X} uncons == (Y) {X} Because all lists now are composed of zero or more stacks, we can write a nice version of 'map' that uses the 'infra' combinator: (X) [F] infra == (X F) infrad == [infra] dip map = [swap null?] [drop] [[uncons] dip [infrad] keep map cons] ifte This version of 'map' enjoys the following property: [G] map [F] map == [G F] map It's also strictly more useful. For example, we can now map a function across a list that returns more than one value (such as 'dup' to give a trivial example). This "stack on the stack" approach can be used to clean up the semantics for the cleave and spread combinators as well. For example, if we redefine Factor's 'bi', 'bi&lt; at &gt;', and 'bi*' as such: X [G] [F] bi == X G (X F) Y (X) [G] [F] bi* == Y G (X F) Y (X) [F] bi&lt; at &gt; == Y F (X F) ... we then enjoy the following laws: [I] [H] bi [G] [F] bi* == [I G] [H F] bi [I] [H] bi* [G] [F] bi* == [I G] [H F] bi* [H] bi&lt; at &gt; [G] [F] bi* == [H G] [H F] bi [I] [H] bi [F] bi&lt; at &gt; == [I F] [H F] bi [I] [H] bi* [F] bi&lt; at &gt; == [I F] [H F] bi* [H] bi&lt; at &gt; [F] bi&lt; at &gt; == [H F] bi&lt; at &gt; This approach also eliminates the need for '2bi', '3bi', et cetera; the programmer can simply elect to push more values into the stack on top of the stack. Final point: All of the above functions are easily typeable. First-class stacks cause no issues. Thoughts? - jn</pre> John Nowak 2010-06-08T01:43:46 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3497 <pre>I'm not sure how to go about doing event-handling (mainly for controls on forms) in Joy. Since "standard" Joy doesn't cover forms and such, I'm expecting to define my own forms system (actually, it'll use Visual Studio's forms system to do all the real work). I gather from searching for "event handling" that not much has been said on this topic in this forum. Any general ideas on this, anyone? Chris Cogan </pre> cpcogan 2010-05-12T13:31:24 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3492 <pre>Could someone recommend a minimalistic implementation of a concatenative language written in c or c++? thanks Slobodan </pre> blazeski 2010-05-11T22:50:49 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3463 <pre>Hello group... Decided I'd give Joy a shot. I've fooled around with Forth a bit, but never made much headway in that camp. I think I might like Joy or its descendants much better. We'll see. Thank you W. Tanksley, Jr for opening the door. ;) -- duke </pre> cgnormandin 2010-05-08T18:58:38 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.concatenative/3457 <pre> Importance Of Teen Sex Education &lt;http://www.worldofestudy.com/hm/Sex-Education-for-Teens.html&gt; This makes it all the more important to provide kids with the requisite sex education at schools as a part of the regular school curriculum. The curriculum for sex education should so be designed that it encompasses a wide range of human relationships, including sex. It is advisable to begin sex education at a very early stage of the education process. Information can be provided in small doses and in simple ways. More.... &lt;http://www.worldofestudy.com/hm/Sex-Education-for-Teens.html&gt; A concentric mode of education can be adopted where the kids are exposed to more information on sex education each year. As a result of sex education, kids come to recognize sex as something very natural and do not consider it a taboo any more, nor are they extra inquisitive about topics related to sex. So, when kids become teenagers, sex is not something they would spend too much time dwelling on. Instead, the teens would spend their time on other activities. More.... &lt;http://www.worldofestudy.com/hm/Sex-Education-for-Teens.html&gt; Read more... &lt;http://www.worldofestudy.com/hm/Sex-Education-for-Teens.html&gt; [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] </pre> Daniel Carson 2010-02-24T04:36:39 Search the mailing list at Gmane query http://search.gmane.org/?group=$group=gmane.comp.lang.concatenative