gmane.games.devel.sweng

Re: The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

Sylvain Vignaud — 2011-09-26T12:54:42

Hi,

Some thing I'd like to see in graphic programmer applicant's demos:
- not the basic anyone-can-do demo (it has to have more than an altered d3d sample with basic texturing and lighting).

- nice-looking results. Better if it shows high-end technics (be it in shadowing or a deferred renderer, or an advanced animation system or some special effects).
- some of the demos finished/polished enough: bug-free, robust, easy to use.
- has to show performances were taken into account: good perfs, tools showing profiling info, not eating too much memory...
- showing abilities to use multiple threads would be a plus.
- Attempt at building a nice architecture (nice as in well-thought, not as in over-engineered/too complex).
- Interest in other side-/home-projects, not related to games nor graphics.
 



From:
sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Massimo
Del Zotto
 


I'm interested in that.



Back when I was in Uni, I tried without succes

Re: The entry competence levelforgraphicsprogrammers

Greg Stelmack — 2011-09-26T11:40:06

On the game demo, having one shows:


1)      An actual interest in making games. Anecdotally the best game programmers seem to be those who also like to code for fun. If you really want into the game industry, you're going to be making games anyway. Even if it's a simple solitaire or Yahtzee game, you're probably doing SOMETHING to mess around with. It shows a true interest, separate from those who think "I want to make cool graphics!" or "game programming would be fun, you get to play games all day, right?" folks.

2)      The ability to complete a project. Lots of folks don't seem to know what it takes to actually FINISH a title.

I wouldn't say it's a requirement, but it sure helps for those trying to break in.

I would also agree that if money is your main goal, stick with investment banking. Sure, you CAN get rich making games, but the odds are not in your favor. I could be making a ton more money if I had stuck with investment banking (my first job out of school), but not having nearly as much fun.

A

Re: The entry competence level forgraphicsprogrammers

Massimo Del Zotto — 2011-09-26T06:36:35

I'm interested in that.
Back when I was in Uni, I tried without success to satisfy both academic
requirements and real life needs. I eventually figured out I needed to drop
one to focus on the other.
I think nobody is interested in average people. Statistics are rather clear
on what an 'average' programmer is.

I'd like to hear other elaborations on this experience-materializing demo
proof.

Thank you
Massimo Del Zotto

2011/9/25 Alen Ladavac <alenl-ml< at >croteam.com>

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Re: The entry competence level forgraphicsprogrammers

Alen Ladavac — 2011-09-25T18:53:14

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Re: The entry competence level forgraphicsprogrammers

2011-09-25T14:51:26

That sounds like a lot of information that you'd learn after years of working on games.  I hate to say it but really unless the original poster is an absolute genius or willing to put in many months of hard work he's just going to have to start in entry level. 
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

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From: Jon Watte <jwatte< at >gmail.com>
Sender: sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.midnightryder.comDate: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 21:35:15 
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Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
programmers

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Re: The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

Jon Watte — 2011-09-25T04:35:15

Why do you want to work in games when there is investment banking?
Seriously?

If you still have to do games, then you should probably pick up a few recent
books on the area you're interested in -- gpu gems, game engine gems, that
sort of thing -- and compare your chops with the articles in those books.
Making sure that you understand each article is actually a good thing -- you
don't need to memorize each technique, but you need to have the basics that
allow you to understand them.

For graphics, this includes a good grasp of basic linear algebra,
matrices/vectors/quaternions, what they represent, and how to use them to
solve problems. "I want to attach animated bone A from the Flaming Sword of
Fire to animated bone B of the character's hand -- what order do I do what
operations in?"
Also make sure you understand row-vectors-on-left vs
column-vectors-on-right!
I imagine understanding different BRDFs would be useful too, as well as the
limitations of various graphics cards (how high is the latency of vertex

Re: The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

Tommy Brett — 2011-09-21T01:30:18

And that sounded even more retarded, I meant to say, I hadn't looked when I
really should have. There's been loads of helpful info and suggestions,
thanks a lot folks!

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 9:28 PM, Tommy Brett <elithiomel< at >gmail.com> wrote:

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Re: The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

Tommy Brett — 2011-09-21T01:28:35

Funny thing is I know a few guys who work for a serious games company and it
never even occurred to me that there might be more, how short sighted of me,
thanks Craig!

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 9:11 PM, Craig Hoffman <craig.r.hoffman< at >gmail.com>wrote:

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Re: The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

Craig Hoffman — 2011-09-21T01:11:35

This doesn't answer the original question but don't overlook "serious game"
development, immersive training development, simulation development, etc.
You don't need to work for a game developer to use game development skills.
Your current skill set might get you a position like these listed below
where you could gain invaluable experience.

http://jobs.saic.com/job/Huntsville-Flash-Game-Programmer-Job-AL-35801/1352496/

http://jobs.saic.com/job/Huntsville-Application-Developer-Job-AL-35801/1404471/

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Tommy Brett <elithiomel< at >gmail.com> wrote:

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Re: The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

Tommy Brett — 2011-09-20T23:45:13

Doesn't seem blunt at all, I think I worded my first post wrong - A better
question would have been "what separates junior from non-junior" as that's
really the question I'm asking. I want to join the games industry, but I
want to do so in a way that doesn't essentially reset my career if at all
possible. In any case, good point!

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Bryan Wagstaff <bryanw< at >xmission.com> wrote:

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Re: The entry competence level for graphics programmers

Bryan Wagstaff — 2011-09-20T22:09:48

This may seem a bit blunt, but I've been wondering about it sense the start of the discussion.

Why do you want to do a job qualification survey like this?  What are you hoping to gain?

Are you looking for permission to apply to a job?  You have permission by virtue of them advertising, so go for it!  Are you worried that you will be rejected?  Apply anyway and let their HR people sort it out.  


If you see a job listing and you have approximately the skills and experience they ask for you should apply for the job.  Don't agonize that you don't know some obscure tidbit; if the cared about it they would have included it in their requirements.

The employer will look over the applications they recieve, reject those that don't fit what they want, interview a few that remain, and then pick the best fit.  Employers are hiring someone to fill a specific need; they only care that you can do the job and that you will fit in with the company.

As a job applicant you should also be asking questions about if you can

Re: The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

Megan Fox — 2011-09-20T19:59:44

Yep.  As a matter of interest, the company I work days for (LEGO / LEGO
Universe) brought on a Flash programmer for their UI work that had 0
previous games experience (but lots of normal dev experience), and it was I
think a salary bump for him, or was at least neutral.  In 3 years, he's now
become the senior engineer on the project.

So yes, there is potential to move across without dropping too much salary,
but still, be prepared for it.  The smaller or less "cool" the company, the
better your chances of moving across without taking a hit are.  (which makes
Zynga in particular a great suggestion for Flash folks - they're more open
to regular developers than, say, an Epic is.)


... as for shader debugging - yeah, graphics programmers don't have a bag of
black magic.  Well, we don't when it comes to debugging, at least ;)  I use
"turn the pixel red"-esque debugging tricks all the time, and they're
particularly powerful if you're working with a class of hardware that
supports dynamic branching.

PIX is super

Re: The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

Oystein Eftevaag — 2011-09-20T18:38:15

Also something to consider: Most larger-scale games these days use Flash 
for their in-game GUIs (see Scaleform), so there's opportunities there 
as well.

On 9/20/2011 2:18 PM, Tommy Brett wrote:

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Re: The entry competence level forgraphicsprogrammers

Gregory Junker — 2011-09-20T18:27:22

And the nice thing about Zynga is you have direct experience in their core
programming language/platform, so you probably would enter there above
junior level. J


Greg

 

From: sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 11:19 AM
To: sweng-gamedev< at >midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
programmers

 

An interesting and informative angle, I did pitch the idea of doing some
games to my current employer but they're largely inexperienced with
developing games, and aren't really willing to take the risk. Perhaps flash
games programming would be the way to get my foot in the door.

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Gregory Junker <gjunker< at >dayark.com> wrote:

One option you may have, with 5 years as a Flash developer, is to gain
industry experience with a Flash games developer. Since you mentioned that
you can't afford a salary decrease, then you proba

Re: The entry competence level forgraphicsprogrammers

Gregory Junker — 2011-09-20T18:25:29

What you need to understand is that the studios most likely to give you
"monetary recognition" for "related software development experience" are the
ones most likely to go under within a year. These studios are desperate for
*anyone* to apply for their open positions. If you can't afford that level
of instability, you may be restricted to the "JP Morgan" of games
development. But even then, you aren't guaranteed a long tenure - large,
well-funded operations can suddenly decide to lay everyone off without
notice (*cough* LucasArts *cough*).

 

You also need to understand that to any games studio worth working for, you
*are* essentially fresh out of university. 5 years of professional C++
programming (and you didn't mention if you had any C++, btw - expect lots of
technical questions about C and C++) might get you an interview, but it's
not going to get you above junior level (if only probationary) if you've
never had a professional games programming position.  


Greg

 

From: sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.mi

Re: The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

Tommy Brett — 2011-09-20T18:18:59

An interesting and informative angle, I did pitch the idea of doing some
games to my current employer but they're largely inexperienced with
developing games, and aren't really willing to take the risk. Perhaps flash
games programming would be the way to get my foot in the door.

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Gregory Junker <gjunker< at >dayark.com> wrote:

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Re: The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

Tommy Brett — 2011-09-20T18:14:34

Agreed, but on the other hand, programming experience and coding practices
are somewhat transferable between roles, and I've certainly participated in
all the usual aspects of launching a product, including source control,
dealing with clients and the "it HAS to be done by 8.30am tomorrow" bits. I
certainly wouldn't be applying for a job at the JP Morgan of games studios,
but I would be hoping to get some monetary recognition for the fact that I'm
not simply fresh out of University.

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Gregory Junker <gjunker< at >dayark.com> wrote:

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Re: The entry competence level for graphicsprogrammers

Gregory Junker — 2011-09-20T18:10:10

One option you may have, with 5 years as a Flash developer, is to gain
industry experience with a Flash games developer. Since you mentioned that
you can't afford a salary decrease, then you probably can't afford an
unstable situation either (which is what most small independent studios will
be, and the ones most likely to hire anyone who sounds like they might know
something about games). 

 

So have you looked at Zynga? 

 

http://www.zynga.com/jobs/

 

A surprising number of people I have worked with in the past in various
studios have landed there, and it's quite stable. Spend some time at Zynga,
get some industry experience on your resume, and work on your "areas for
improvement" in your spare time like you are now. 

 

One thing to bear in mind, is that any studio who is looking for a graphics
programmer above junior/entry level, is likely doing so because their
current graphics programmer, who is almost certainly rather senior, is
leaving, and they need someone to replace him/her. Therefore, you m

Re: The entry competence level forgraphicsprogrammers

Hegarty, Joe — 2011-09-20T17:43:21

General:
For DX stuff - PIX - http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee417062%28v=VS.85%29.aspx
For GL Stuff - gDEBugger - http://www.gremedy.com/

Nvidia Hardware:
Nvidia Nsight - http://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-parallel-nsight
Nvidia perfhud for older stuff - http://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-perfhud

I assume AMD/ATI have similar tools but I haven't used them.

That list is probably a good start.

Joe

From: sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.midnightryder.com [mailto:sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:33 PM
To: sweng-gamedev< at >midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics programmers

Pet projects are definitely my forte, spending a day shouting at Flash as once again I trace a bug further down the scope chain than there is source code is turning my hair grey, the only way to prevent hair loss is to go home and work on my pet terrain renderer till 3 in the morning. On that tangent, what do you gu

Re: The entry competence level forgraphicsprogrammers

Gregory Junker — 2011-09-20T17:43:13

For debugging shaders, I use PIX (comes with the DirectX SDK). You'll need
to be using Direct3D for that, of course. 

 

Regarding "low-tech": When you are trying to track down a nasty bug that
happens only in the final build for the Wii, and it's 18 hours before you
need to ship the game to the publisher, sometimes changing colors or
emitting special sounds is the only way to get it done. So don't be
surprised at how often "low-tech" solutions get the title shipped. ;)


Greg 

 

From: sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:33 AM
To: sweng-gamedev< at >midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
programmers

 

On that tangent, what do you guys use for debugging shaders? My solution of
simply changing the colour output for a given vertex or fragment upon
encountering an unexpected situation in the shader seems remarkably
low-tech, and should prob

Re: The entry competence level forgraphicsprogrammers

Gregory Junker — 2011-09-20T17:35:53

Unfortunately, having had no experience in the games industry, you will most
likely start at a junior level, even if it's just probationary. Games are no
different than any other industry; if you have had no practical experience
in an industry, you don't get to jump in at the mid- to high-level spots. 

 

As an example, if you had no experience at all in commercial
banking/finance, would you expect JP Morgan to let you start as an
investment banker because you do some stock trading on the side?

 

TBH, you probably need more than just holiday time to learn graphics
programming at any level that would be attractive to most game studios.  


Greg

 

From: sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.midnightryder.com
[mailto:sweng-gamedev-bounces< at >lists.midnightryder.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
Brett
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:24 AM
To: sweng-gamedev< at >midnightryder.com
Subject: Re: [Sweng-Gamedev] The entry competence level for graphics
programmers

 

Thanks for the replies guys,

 

I actually wasn't aware of much of