gmane.culture.transportation.humanpowered.boats

RE: Re: Whale Power promises more efficient props? MoreFWIW

GARZA, VICTOR — 2008-07-01T05:08:28

www.craftacraft.com/whale_fin_poopeller_blades FWIW. Vic

Re: Whale Power promises more efficient props?

Rick Willoughby — 2008-06-30T23:29:39

www.thestar.com/article/213475 What do you guys think? Vic Vic The article primarily discusses turbines not props. In low wind conditions these must operate at high angle of attack and will benefit from the serrated leading edge given the higher tolerance to stall. That is the current target market for the technology. The most efficient props using high aspect asymmetric foils operate with AofA in the range -1 to 1 degree so there would seem to be no benefit in using the serrated leading edge for pedal boats. Rick Willoughby

ELKHART RACE

2008-06-30T21:19:50

Hey Everybody, Sorry for being a little too silent lately, Will come up with stuff about Giuseppe community boat and MOLOKAI. Meanwhile, the Elkhart race has just been approved! It is the SHUTT MEMORIAL HYDROBOWL in Elkhart Indiana on Jul. 26. More later, reserve the date! jake. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

Re: Whale Power promises more efficient props?

Dave Franzen — 2008-06-30T21:06:58

This phenomena was discovered by Dr. Frank E. Fish (no joke) in the 1980's and he has been working on it ever since. Fish is a scientist with the Woods Hole center. http://www.whalepower.com/drupal/?q=node/1 Fish is very interested in how fish/whales/seals/aircraft maneuver. Regards, Dave Franzen Eugene, Oregon

Re: Whale Power promises more efficient props?

Giuseppe Carignani — 2008-06-30T20:44:48

Hi Vic and colleagues do you remember the Robo Tuna Project? It seems that the incredible efficiency of living creatures swimming depends on their instinctive control of the pressure variations that allows them to fine-tune their swimming movements increasing the efficiency: "Fish encountering vortices senses the pressure variations of the spinning eddies as they move along its side. To capture energy from the vortices and boost its swimming efficiency, the fish instinctively times the flapping of its tail to counter rotating whorls that meet and weaken the encountered ones." The shape of the fins doesn't seem the key to me. But admittedly, I'm not an expert... Giuseppe On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 5:59 PM, GARZA, VICTOR public.gmane.org> wrote:

Whale Power promises more efficient props?

GARZA, VICTOR — 2008-06-30T15:59:14

www.thestar.com/article/213475 What do you guys think? Vic .

Re: Open water bike

Larry Smith — 2008-06-13T15:55:52

Giuseppe, Are you familiar with Bob Stuart's "Spinfin" drive unit? I don't believe Bob is marketing them now, but one of those might serve as a solid basis for mods to fit your concept. The Spinfin was/is a sleek dis-mountable unit, and I believe it has enough of a track record to indicate durability, performance, etc. Perhaps Bob will comment. Larry

Re: Open water bike

Giuseppe Carignani — 2008-06-13T07:25:38

Ian what you say makes perfect sense to me - I proposed three issues for the initial discussion on the Open Waterbike, and two of them are drive unit (or drive leg?) and propeller, (the same you point out) along with a first idea for sorting them. Anyway, my idea is that we shouldn't define in the Open Waterbike architectural model what's INSIDE the drive unit, but just the external interfaces (physical connections) and the performance, so my drive unit and yours could fit an Open Waterbike. This, I believe, will enable sustainability and innovation. I have an initial proposal for the connection, shown at: http://www.openwaterbike.com/architecture/the-architectural-design-group/the-open-waterbike-drive-unit My drive unit in based an a twisted chain, after some seven prototypes, we are quite happy with this one, but as I said that's not so important to me. I will be happy to adopt yours if it's better then mine: 'our boat is better then mine' is our catchphrase... I'll hope I can set up a collaborative en

Open water bike

Ian Cassell — 2008-06-13T03:55:50

Giuseppe How do your drive legs work? Do you use gears, chains, belts or whatever. To me the start point for your open water bike project should be a reliable drive leg that could be fitted to any type of boat, the variable would be a range of different propellers to suit speed and power. I am making a driveleg using an involute gear box with a 3:1 gearing, the gearbox is angled at 45 degrees with two universal joints connecting to the propeller so the prop spins vertically. My boat is a 5 metre monohull with outriggers, it has a centreboard casing for the driveleg and hopefully this should work (nearly finished). If you would like some pics let me know. Ian Cassell

Re: Re: The Open Waterbike Project revised

Bob Stuart — 2008-06-11T23:26:39

On 11-Jun-08, at 2:29 PM, Giuseppe Carignani wrote: Well, there you go, Giuseppe, consensus building is the hardest part of what you seek. Building boats and riding bikes is about expressing individuality, not conformity. Best, Bob Stuart

Re: Re: The Open Waterbike Project revised

Giuseppe Carignani — 2008-06-11T20:29:56

Hi colleages All right, maybe waterbike is not the best choice. The reason why I chose it is that usually people who doesn't know what a HPB is understands immediatly what I am talking about. Besides, this name has probably a neat translation in all the languages of the World, at least if they have a word for bicycle and one for water. Anyway, I don't want to defend my choice, that's not my point. I hope we can ask the community (as soon as we do have a community...) and decide together. Ah, if you have a look at Wiktionary you'll find: waterbike: fast and efficient human-powered boat, usually propelled by the action of a rider's feet upon pedals. (retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/waterbike") It looks like our concept, isn't it? Possbily because I just posted it. ;-) (but i didn't cheat: this is actually the common meaning, at least in Europe). Great, the age of collective building of meaning! Giuseppe

Re: hpv-boats Digest, Vol 47, Issue 3

Greg Kolodziejzyk — 2008-06-10T19:29:10

The speed is getting closer to what I need to break the kayak record: http://www.adventuresofgreg.com/HPB/2008/06/rudder-envy.html

Re: The Open Waterbike Project revised

Larry Smith — 2008-06-10T18:46:36

[[...continuing to bat the ball around - some more thoughts: ]] [[I agree that "Waterbike" is perhaps not the best choice. there have been a number of attempts with "bike" in the title, and the term is too terra-oriented for my taste. As for "HPPB",...the H,P,and B are already pretty well established as meaning "Human Powered Boat". Substituting "High" for "Human", and "Pedal" for "powered" seems to me an invitation to confusion. (...and suggests an assumed restriction to pedals as power input.This brings up a point that may be peculiarly American - "pedal boats" have existed for many years in a familiar form, a rectangular tub with a 2-person crankshaft with pedals, in which the two operators can virtually kill themselves with effort, and still not make 3 knots. I have done so and measured the speed. "Pedal boat" will bring to mind these tourist-rental type craft, to many Americans at least. Hardly an exciting image.) How 'bout keeping the HPB as currently accepted, with a simple addition

Re: Re: The Open Waterbike Project revised

Giuseppe Carignani — 2008-06-10T17:17:44

Rick I have included all your suggestions in the 'requirements' page, in an almost 'verbatim' style. I agree with most of them and of course I believe we should include also those on which I disagree in a 'startup' document. Also, I have added the open question 'upright or recumbent' among the architectural startup questions I have already proposed (namely general architecture (multihull v monohull), drive unit (architectural necessity and connection), propeller connection, recumbent or upright position. Right now it's just a repository of startup questions, I don't expect many persons (if any) discussion on them right now, but we'll make good use of it when and if the project goes on... I have also marked the added text with a (RW) monogram, just as a reminder, I hope it's all right for you (just tell me if that's not the case...) Thanks Giuseppe On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Rick Willoughby public.gmane.org> wrote:

Re: EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT (sans picture)

Peter Hentz — 2008-06-10T14:16:39

Sorry I can't make it this year, maybe next year. Is the Elkhart event on this year? I might be able to go to that one (late July?). Peter Hentz Hobie Oasis Tandem ----- Original Message ---- From: "FreeEntTec-YDxpq3io04c< at >public.gmane.org" public.gmane.org> To: hpv-boats< at >bikelist.org; wloomis-1zM7Hi2L3ssyLce1RVWEUA< at >public.gmane.org Cc: grow.daniel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:52:42 AM Subject: [hpv-boats] EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT (sans picture) HEY, ...All you cats who make "propeller-boat-things..." Don't forget the Father's day event at St. Joe Michigan hosted by Daniel Grow. His new Email is _grow.daniel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org_ (mailto:grow.daniel-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org) This is the confluence of the St. Joe River into Lake Michigan and is a *really* cool place to boat. ******** Niedermann and Goldthorpe about a mile out on Lake Michigan, that teeny speck of

Re: The Open Waterbike Project revised

Rick Willoughby — 2008-06-10T06:41:14

Giuseppe I think you are misquoting about the Hobie. I don't think anyone ever said it was the be all and end all of waterbikes. It is simply the current benchmark of commercial pedal boats, Some basic questions: 1. Why have you chosen the Open Waterbike title. Bike is derived from bicycle I presume. I can accept the cycle part although I it has limited application as it constrains thinking to a crank. The most natural action is with swing arms. Bi implies two. Does that mean two hulls. Why not use the term pedal boat. This distinguishes it from various other HPBs. You might be more elaborate and go for Fast Pedal Boat (FPB) or maybe High Performance Pedal Boat (HPPB). Point is I do not like Waterbike as being applicable terminology for the range of boats in current use. 2. The basic requirements could be more specific. From a safety perspective I believe it should be unsinkable if swamped. I also know from experience that it is important to be able to release from

Re: The Open Waterbike Project revised

Larry Smith — 2008-06-09T23:31:07

[Open waterbike Project...] Hello Giuseppe, Just some thoughts, and a word of support-in-principle: We who have been watching for a number of years have seen numerous individuals pour heart, soul, time, energy and finances into various individually dreamed-of projects, often with results which in one or several ways were quite impressive. That few(very!) of them are current market-place successes is simply a fact of water-craft marketing life, and the response of the general public to innovative but often highly specialized products is not the same as the response of fellow "enthusiasts". (In spite of the appreciation which forum members may express for excellence of design, construction, novelty, etc. the number of potential buyers who actually desire to spend their money for the opportunity to exhaust themselves maintaining "flight" on a HP-hydrofoil is very small, for one example. ;-) The WaveBike, Trampofoil, various fin-drives, etc., more often get a "Hey neat!" reaction from spectat

Re: The Open Waterbike Project revised

Bob Stuart — 2008-06-09T19:28:03

On 9-Jun-08, at 7:40 AM, Giuseppe Carignani wrote: The popular success of bicycles has gotten more people to think of improvements and facilitated crude hacking, but trying to build around existing parts has often left potential gains unrealized. In a mature market, trike parts would seldom interchange with bike parts, and recumbents would benefit from a re-arranged derailleur system. Unfortunately, customers prefer expensive, jewel-like components even when they are basically unsuitable, so builders can only afford to develop frames, seats, and other must-change items. Best, Bob Stuart

Re: The Open Waterbike Project revised

Giuseppe Carignani — 2008-06-09T13:40:25

Hi Bob, your comments are as interesting as ever... Right, but usually standardization emerges after a 'dominant design' has set up, like (in the case of the bicycle) after 1895 with the success of the safety bike based on the diamond frame. After that, innovation was modular and incremental rather than radical, but radical innovation (like recumbents) was anyhow enabled by the availability, low cost and diffusion of modular components. What we are trying to do is to set up a modular architecture in a rather fluid situaton, when a dominant design has not already shown up but we have some pretty clear idea about possible waterbike architectures and can communicate and collaborate like never before. Is it possible? I don't know, but we have the Internet and this is a completely new situation. Let's explore together this new way... this is a clever observation, and a true one (I am a kayaker myself...) Indeed, the situation of the users of the Ordinary bicycle in the 1880s was very close to this. They were q

Re: The Open Waterbike Project revised

Bob Stuart — 2008-06-09T12:51:26

On 9-Jun-08, at 3:44 AM, Giuseppe Carignani wrote: The history of the bike shows that any standardization is bad for innovation. After a century of organized road racing and cyclo- cross, bike design was almost stagnant until California and Japan got involved. I like your second rule, but kayakers prefer the mastery of skill and water contact in their boating experience. They resent anything that makes it easier for the next generation. I hope you can find a few partners this way, but I think that if you try to form a Rules Committee, it would have to have fairly narrowly defined goals, either by charter or membership, to keep anyone involved. In other words, have fun, but don't expect a mass movement. Boat development is pretty much open-source anyway. Everybody looks at what has been done, and almost none of it is patented. Best, Bob Stuart

The Open Waterbike Project revised

Giuseppe Carignani — 2008-06-09T09:44:31

Dear colleagues and friends I have carefully considered all your comments of The Open Waterbike Project and I have therefore revised the project and updated the website. Most of the comments made sense to me, and this shows that often strong criticism is often more useful than praise... I hope I have provided an answer to Alex et al. (who said: ...I'd really like to ask what the aim of any OpenSource boat is first, because without that I really do think it's a no-goer...) at the page, in which I tried to summarize the requirements of an Open Waterbike: http://www.openwaterbike.com/architecture/the-open-waterbike-requirements and I'd really appreciate your opinion! I'd like also to stress that racing HPVs and leisure HPVs are possibly not as far apart as Alex believes, as all the history of technological change, e.g. the history of the bycicle, shows. Finally, I'd like to comment of who said that we don't need an 'Open Waterbike' since we have already some nice mass-produced pedal-boats like the Hobie M