gmane.culture.sf.delany

Re: Just a little way into _Spiders_, and...

vpoleganov — 2012-05-25T11:46:06


Towards the end we are told that Eric has read another book, besides Ethica, more than once. Is that supposed to be Barnes' Nightwood? 

Finished it today and I completely agree with what someone on the message board here wrote a while ago - TVNS is probably Delany's most satisfying novel since "Stars..."

--- In delany-list< at >yahoogroups.com, Steve M <lists< at >...> wrote:

Re: Re: Just a little way into _Spiders_, and...

Erich Schneider — 2012-05-24T15:39:03


This was my experience as well.

Re: Just a little way into _Spiders_, and...

Steve M — 2012-05-24T09:49:14

I'm glad I didn't read this thread until after I had finished the book.

I think there's a reason that one of the only porn films actually 
mentioned as playing at the Opera is LA Tool and Die. The opening 
"Shack" sequence roughly mirrors the truck-stop orgy scene while the 
jackoff scene at the gas station later mirrors Eric's youthful 
experience watching his Greek neighbor.

I too found myself often distanced from the sex scenes. It was, as 
one of the two big reviews said, like reading someone else's 
pornography--though I am gay and have done some of the things 
described. And I know men like some of the characters, in the sense 
of the sexual opennness and nonomogamy, the interplays between food 
and sex, the turnon around sweat and other smells, the sexual ease.

You're right about the Nifty connection. I thought in particular of 
the "Bob Archman" Millennium Construction Company/Catfish series both 
for the idealized setting (rich benefactor for a blue collar utopia) 
and for the sexual ethics of op

Re: 'Spiders' review from the LA Review of Books

nivekgnir — 2012-05-23T18:48:55

No. And yes. But on purpose. As Chip kept adding things to the first few years it seemed to bloat. But not only were there things he wanted to explore, I realized he is showing us in text how everything seems to take so long when we're young--time flows so slowly--and as we age, it seems to slip by faster and faster. This is exactly how the novel works. The farther you get into it, the quicker it moves forward in time. 

--- In delany-list< at >yahoogroups.com, Jorge Rapalo <JRapalo< at >...> wrote:

Re: Re: 'Spiders' review from the LA Review of Books

Jorge Rapalo — 2012-05-23T15:02:56

I wonder however, what it says about the novel that you need a "stay
with it that it gets better" warning.  Was the initial part simply
allowed to run too long?

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 8:19 AM, toddbehr60 <daddytodd< at >gmail.com> wrote:

RE: A brilliant review of Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 2012-05-23T14:54:34

On the contrary, I think my difficulties (which have faded somewhat as the book progresses, though I'm still in the reviewer's "first novel" or first half) are part of reading the novel right -- at least, right _for me_. 

It is indeed, as the reviewer remarks, "someone else's porn," and as such it _should_ make me, if not uncomfortable, at least not-titilated. But as the book progresses and the characters (especially Shit -- Eric is a little _too_ "nice") develop, I'm finding it much easier to read, and much more entertaining (in the broad sense of the word: entertaining an idea). Some of the scenes I've hit are just too funny for words (though indeed words is all they are).

I still find _most_ of the sex rather mechanical and boring.

But there's a lot more than sex to this novel.

To: delany-list< at >yahoogroups.com
From: kdring< at >pacbell.net
Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 17:06:46 +0000
Subject: [delany-list] A brilliant review of Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders

Re: 'Spiders' review from the LA Review of Books

toddbehr60 — 2012-05-23T14:19:33

Yeah, great review. It's a big comfort to know that I don't have another 300 pages of uninterrupted cum/piss/toejam/snot/dickcheese/shit (and precious little else) ahead of me.

I still may have to stop every once in a while and read something lighter to "cleanse the palette" -- I've been using E.C. Tubb's "Dumarest," assorted "Star Trek" and assorted other books as diversions between chunks of "Spiders". But I think I'll be able to finish now.

Daddy Todd


--- In delany-list< at >yahoogroups.com, Zvi Gilbert <zvi< at >...> wrote:

A brilliant review of Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders

nivekgnir — 2012-05-22T17:06:46

If you have had difficulty with TVNS, you may not be reading it right. Full disclosure: I have spent the last several years proofreading and partially editing the book. I have a very intimate relationship with it. Yet even with that connection, I doubt I could have even come close to writing the incredibly insightful review that just came out in the Los Angeles Review of Books. Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders has been grokked:

http://lareviewofbooks.org/article.php?type=&id=652&fulltext=1&media=

'Spiders' review from the LA Review of Books

Zvi Gilbert — 2012-05-22T16:35:58

I think this review is exceptionally insightful, written by someone who is
aware of Delany's output, and may give rise to some discussions about
exactly what kind of a book it is and what it's trying to do, referencing
our discussions over the last little while...

<http://lareviewofbooks.org/article.php?type=&id=652&fulltext=1&media=>

--Z


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Re: Just a little way into _Spiders_, and...

Eric Solstein — 2012-05-21T00:55:53

I can't speak about the new novel at the moment, but the ongoing discussion brings to mind DeSade's Justine. It's a thick book with endless lists of abuses practiced upon a sweet young girl (and many others, I seem to recall, as well), and it is not hot porn as far as I'm concerned. It felt endless and pointless until the immensely comic payoff at the end. Let me add, as an Eric who has made more than a few attempts at Spinoza, if you can pull off his Ethics, "Spiders" will be a breeze.

-Eric Solstein
For current work, archives & materials of interest, at YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/agentb27






On May 20, 2012, at 4:16 PM, toddbehr60 wrote:




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Just a little way into _Spiders_, and...

toddbehr60 — 2012-05-20T20:16:01

I've been slowly working my way through "Spiders" since it came out. I'm about 2/3 of the way through, and I'm giving serious consideration to bailing.

I read a few chapters, then have to flee and read something less... unpleasant before returning. As one earlier poster commented, it's not the sex, it's the fact that the sex is boring. I mean, if Delany wants to bring pornography into the literary conversation, it somewhat behooves him to, you know, make the porno HOT!

Sadly, it's not. I get more excitement out of a few minutes on xtube or the "nifty" erotic story archive. As a middle-aged gay man, I've participated in a significant percentage of the "transgressive" activities detailed in the book. Not in the volumes as the characters, and not with the dedication to plumbing the depths of dinge evidenced by Eric, Shit, Dynamite and their neighbors, but none of it is really shocking to me. Just kind of exhausting.

So, OK, it's porno that's not meant to arouse. So then it must be trying to tell me something

Re: finished reading _Spiders_

vpoleganov — 2012-05-18T06:31:14


I'm 500+ pages in and so far it feels very... instructive. I don't know how else to describe all those moments where a character is teaching another something. Also, at times it feels like a 19th century novel. Probably that's intentional.

I can see that Delany is expanding his transgressive pursuits (remember that character in The Mad Man saying that snot eating is the thing he would not do? In TVNS projectile vomiting is passingly mentioned in the same manner as snot eating in The Mad Man: should this tell us something about Delany's next novel?), but some scenes are just too much and too tiring. I also don't like and care much about Dynamite. He's more a discursive tool than a character to me.

There are moments of pure brilliance in TVNS, some of the scenes are heartbreaking, many are something only a Delany novel can offer (Delany IS a master of narrative tone). For me, that's enough. Of course, I'd be happy if his next work is pure SF or something in the vein of the lovely Dark Reflections, but I am

RE: Just a little way into _Spiders_, and...

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 2012-05-17T21:35:50

Ron wrote:










I have no argument with any of that. My point isn't that there's so much sex, or even that there's so much transgressive or fetishistic gay sex. I can deal with that: I greatly enjoyed _The Mad Man_.

My problem is that it's _boring_ sex: I am not _so_ straight (though I am, pretty damn, straight) that some of the scenes in his previous books -- I particularly mind me of one in _Flight from Neveryon_ -- didn't turn me on. The sex in _Spiders_, at least so far, seems as if it were more about mathematical combinatorics ("How many ways can we permute this many organs in this much time?") than desire.

This disappoints the _hell_ out of me, particularly if/since (apparently) this is what a large part of the book consists of. 

In _Interviews with SRD_ -- it's quoted on the back cover -- he says that he's interested in characters only insofar as they allow him to write certain sentences. I came away thinking that was an exaggeration; certainly I've rarely read a more character-driven book th

Re: Just a little way into _Spiders_, and...

Ron Henry — 2012-05-17T19:02:59

This discussion reminds me of how non-science fiction readers talk
about sf -- "if it weren't for all the never-ending stuff about
rockets and aliens and science and stuff, I could just enjoy the story
and characters."

I can't help but think this is (at least part of) Delany's point with
this new book. Genre is about indulging fetishes, whether they be
technological or sexual (or in other instances romantic or criminal,
etc.)?

--Ron Henry


On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Jorge Rapalo <JRapalo< at >gmail.com> wrote:

Re: Just a little way into _Spiders_, and...

Jorge Rapalo — 2012-05-17T15:55:11

I personally share your position.

However, this begs the question, should literature have a "target audience"?

Is the narrowed focus of such book, with its emphasis in mechanical
details, even if supported by a larger ideological intent, not
restricting it as "genre"?

I always agreed with Chip's desire to do for pornography/erotica what
in a sense he and others did for space opera, but may this be actually
be reductive instead of expanding or challenging boundaries?




On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx< at >hotmail.com> wrote:

Re: Just a little way into _Spiders_, and...

Joseph Zitt — 2012-05-17T15:23:02

Yup. I just finished reading that scene. Reading _Spiders_ is feeling
like a chore more than a delight. There is, as always, some beautiful
writing, even within that scene. But I feel worn down. (It also
doesn't help that I usually only get time to read fiction while
eating, and in this case... ick.)

I get what he's trying to portray, I think, that in this subculture
connections are made through sex. But it drags on and on, feeling, as
Dan'l said, almost mechanical. It was pretty clear, from the repeated
mentions of the Mexican at the toilet, that Eric was going to make his
way through having sex with just about every man in the place, ending
with the Mexican. (I'm reminded of the character counting orgasms (or
something like that) in _Equinox_.)

I love Delany's writing, and have read just about everything I could
lay my hands on (except _Hogg_ and _Phallos_, and I never got through
the Neveryon series, though the last book is one of my favorites of
his). But there's a good chance that I may bail out on th

Just a little way into _Spiders_, and...

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 2012-05-17T14:16:32

...I've realized that I'm no longer (if I ever was) the "target audience" for Delany's fiction.

I've only read one major sex scene -- the mini-orgy in the truck stop -- and I realized: this not only doesn't turn me on, it doesn't even turn me _off_! It doesn't bore me, exactly, but it has no emotional or erotic effect on me. Granted, I'm about as straight as they come, but some of Delany's previous scenes (I mind me of one in the third Neveryon book...) have done it for me.

This one was ... mechanical? Perhaps that's too harsh; but certainly _choreographed_ would not be far off the mark. There is nothing that seems spontaneous about the scene, and nobody seems to be doing more than going through their motions -- even Eric, to whom this scene is new.

I'm going to continue, but if the whole book is like this, I think I'm out of Delany's fiction (unless he miraculously produces _Splendor_). Which is a damn shame, because I thought his last few books, and especially _Dark Reflections_, were the best things h

Re: finished reading _Spiders_

nivekgnir — 2012-05-16T18:37:11

I finished it. Several times, actually, as I proofread and did some light editing on the novel as it was evolving. I will say that as Chip added more and more chapters, and extended or added scenes, I recall thinking it was becoming too much. And then I got past it. I realized what he was doing--he was showing life, warts and all. I also got used to the sex scenes pretty quickly. Certainly there were times when I read something (the story about the photograph at the pump comes directly to mind) where I thought, "Oh, come on, Chip! Do you really need to push that boundary?" But yes, he did. Ultimately, I found so much love in Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders--heaps and heaps of it.




--- In delany-list< at >yahoogroups.com, Erich Schneider <erich< at >...> wrote:

SV: finished reading _Spiders_

Lyshol, Heidi — 2012-05-16T06:57:05

I'm a bit further along - just 200 pages to go. I'm finding this book quite disturbing, and (like Madman) this is going to be a book that is going to gather dust on my shelves once I've read it. The descriptions and the use of language are so wonderful, and the main subject either bores me or makes me slightly nauseous. 

Yes, Delany manages to convey that it's possible to get off on all this stuff, but every time I find myself entering the head of one of the characters I feel sick enough to skip meals.  I guess I must have a fetish about regular applications of soap and water, and that it's more important to my enjoyment of literature than I thought. 


Heidi

Re: finished reading _Spiders_

Peter Fogarty — 2012-05-16T04:29:44

I'm about halfway.  I've kinda stalled because of all the lengthly sex
scenes. To be honest, I've been skimming them. It makes me say to
myself: I love you, Chip. But can't we have a book that _isn't_ about
the many ways men can have sex with each other?

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Erich Schneider
<erich< at >alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:

finished reading _Spiders_

Erich Schneider — 2012-05-16T03:51:58

A short while ago I finished _Through the Valley of the Nest of
Spiders_. I have to say, it's not up there among my favorites of his
(those would be _Stars_, _Dhalgren_, _Triton_, and the
autobiographical works). The feeling I get is that the block of marble
needed some more chiseling to more clearly reveal the statue within.

I find myself agreeing with a few of the specific points made in
this review (but I would stop short at saying it was "bad"):

http://jwcampb.blogspot.com/2012/05/review-of-through-valley-of-nest-of.html

I'm sure Delany could explain exactly why every one of the many sex
scenes was kept in at the length and level of detail it was, but I did
start to mentally say "oh, not another one" as things went on. 

The relationship of Eric and Shit did remind me of that between Marq and
Rat in _Stars_, only here, the question asked is "so you meet your
perfect erotic match... and then get to live with them for 70 years in
a milieu where sex is the primary way you spend your free time, at
least f