gmane.comp.web.zope.plone.devel

Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Lennart Regebro — 2012-05-26T03:43:28

OK, that's not how I understood it at all, so now I'm completely confused.


Dexterity is essential in doing exactly this. Diazo is another
important part in doing exactly this, as is the toolbar.

Deco/Deco Light I apparently do not understand what it is.


I agree. But that is only true if Deco replaces Dexterity, and if it
does, I don't understand what Deco is, and in that case I in fact
probably don't want it at all.

//Lennart

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Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

T Kim Nguyen — 2012-05-26T01:56:30

If organizing a conference results in a major feature's development stagnating, maybe we are not calibrating the relative importance of the conference, or maybe we should rethink the level of expectation for the conference!  I'm not going to say the same about raising kids. ;)

    Kim, who is on mostly the hook now for Plone Symposium Midwest 2013

On May 25, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Dylan Jay <djay< at >pretaweb.com> wrote:


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Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Dylan Jay — 2012-05-26T01:21:20


+1


+10. I only wish I wasn't a 22 hour flight away :(

I don't really know what is really happening behind the scenes but it  
seems like everyone is looking to fourdigits and Martin Aspeli to  
continue their awesome leadership on Deco but both are otherwise  
occupied. I can understand how organising an international conference  
and twins respectively can do that :)

But the plans are all there. Lots of the code is done. All it needs is  
someone to step up and create a time and place. Go Philip Go :) Two  
Deco sprints and we could have a Deco lite plugin before the  
conference :)





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Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Dylan Jay — 2012-05-26T01:08:50


My understanding is that Deco lite was meant to be addon that adds a  
single content type of LayoutPage. It's not linked to p.a.ct and can  
also work with ATCT. I thought of it as a way of getting Deco out  
there in the interim, replacing Collage, PortletPage etc and allowing  
addon authors to start creating tiles.
However putting deco lite in the core I don;t think makes sense.  
LayoutPage won't exist under Deco proper. We have a responsibility to  
put things into the core which aren't interim, but rather we expect to  
be maintained for a long time. I personally think putting temporary  
solutions into the core is creating more problems than it solves.

On 25/05/2012, at 10:11 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote:


+1 5.0 must have default content types as Dexterity based.


I can see the impatience but I am saying that later IS better than  
sooner if it means putting out an interium solution that isn't a drop  
in replacement.

I just wanted to repeat Tim's excellent point:

On 25/05/2012, at 3:48 PM, T. K

Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Sean Upton — 2012-05-25T18:43:40

Because there are larger classes of content management problems that
are driven by schema rather than by layout.  Most content management
problems I have encountered are structured and semi-structured
information.  There always will be more of these problems for
integrators and add-on developers to solve, and those problems are
easier to solve (generally) than the layout-driven problems, which are
a tougher nut to crack (why are we not using CompositePack right
now?).  The CMS universe of Plone is larger than WCMS (where the W
means "web page").  Behaviors instead of schemaextender is the story
here that makes core types matter.


You need both Dexterity and Deco, start with the one that solves more
problems for more people sooner.  That's why Dexterity will ship with
4.x.  As to default content types shipping with Plone 5, folks will
want to extend the default types, and I can't think schemaextender is
the answer in perpetuity -- that's the win for integrators and add-on
developers.

Sean

----------------

Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Lennart Regebro — 2012-05-25T12:11:32

In my fridge.

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Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Lennart Regebro — 2012-05-25T12:11:08

I'd like that for say 4.4. Or 4.3 for that matter, Dexterity works,
it's just multilingual support that is the problem IMO.

But for 5.0 the default content types must be Dexterity, because that
is the long term goal, and we can't have it a long term goal forever,
we have to actually do it sooner or later. And sooner is better than
later.


If there is a one-to-one mapping of the fields it is, and there should be.

//Lennart

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Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Lennart Regebro — 2012-05-25T12:06:40

Are they mutually exclusive? I though Deco light was an addition to
the Dexterity content types?

//Confused

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Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Ross Patterson — 2012-05-25T12:03:29

Eric Steele <ericsteele47< at >gmail.com>
writes:


+10

Let us all remember the profound words written so long ago...

Eric Steele <ericsteele47< at >gmail.com>
writes:


If deco manages to get itself ready much faster than many of us suspect,
great!  But keeping people waiting for 2 years for Plone 5 will hurt us
more than having Deco in Plone 5 instead of Plone 6 will gain us, by
far.

:-)

Ross


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Re: How can we make Products.TinyMCE moreconfigurable?

Mike Rhodes — 2012-05-25T11:48:47

I think this is a really nice idea, which you could probably do via 
plone.outputfilters without modifying TinyMCE, if your editors are happy 
seeing the raw [youtube id=blah height=blah] text. It's pretty simple 
for a developer to write a new transform for the outputfilters chain.

While you could hardcode specific transforms for given services, there's 
also the oembed standard which might help with writing a more generic 
transform: http://oembed.com/. It supports sending maxheight/width. 
Example result:

http://www.youtube.com/oembed?url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch?v%3D-UUx10KOWIE&format=json&maxwidth=300

Mike.

Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Philip Bauer — 2012-05-25T09:53:18

Am 25.05.2012 um 07:07 schrieb Dylan Jay:


At Starzel.de we are using plone.app.contentypes for all our new projects and are very happy with our dexterity-only websites. It's really nice using behaviors to extend the default types provided by p.a.ct. I think migration-steps from ATContentTypes to p.a.ct might be possible but are a lot of work and will break once existing types are customized with schemaextender. I would not dream about using p.a.ct in sites that have a lot of existing content. 

I wrote an email to the co-developers of plone.app.contentypes a while ago in which I made the assumption that since Deco will provide the "next content-type" p.a.ct will never become part of the plone-core and will continue being a tool for developers. Therefore we should go ahead with moving the types from pure xml to interface-driven types and the views to browser-views. This would give developers much more freedom to work with these types effectively. 

I still don't think we could make p.a.ct more than an optio

Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Jean-Michel FRANCOIS — 2012-05-25T08:00:30

I remember this from bristol conferences:

"Evolution is better than revolution"

I guess we should add diazo and dexterity to core as addons but not
activated and let integrator do the rest.

And it should be the same for every addons (deco, plone.app.event, ...)

Remember plone.app.caching, plone.app.theming, I have used theses addons
from their first release, make some fixes and just see it in action.

I would like to use deco as released addon before seeing it in the plone
core.

Regards / Cordialement,
JeanMichel FRANCOIS
Find me on Twitter <http://twitter.com/toutpt> / Retrouvez moi sur
Twitter<http://twitter.com/toutpt_nantes>




2012/5/25 Armin Stroß-Radschinski <developer-itUlVD6B3SM< at >public.gmane.org>

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Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Armin Stroß-Radschinski — 2012-05-25T05:58:01

+1
Am 25.05.2012 um 01:38 schrieb Eric Steele:


There are big and happy Plone 3 based installations out there. With  
Plone 5 we do not need to make people with Plone 4 based applications  
happy at once, because no project manager will switch to Plone 5 when  
there is no need. Staying at 4 until migration works and starting with  
5 where it makes sense is always very clever. Version buzz is a  
(vegetative) brain problem. Ignoring Dexterity with working AT can  
bring you to 5 very easy (even if it is useless). We need Plone 5 to  
be leading edge but with an early and serious knowledge where the  
migration traps are! This can be the ground for good communication!  
Avoid the PR disaster Typo3 has now with Phoenix.

We should encourage some singular people / projects with important add  
ons to take the pain and create working migrations to the new  
scenario. Everybody should help to get this done fast and with serious  
feedback and documentation. Then the results should help to estimate  
the amount

Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Dylan Jay — 2012-05-25T05:07:32

On 25/05/2012, at 3:48 PM, T. Kim Nguyen wrote:


yeah sorry, stop energy is not what I intended either. More that I  
think deco is the sugar coating that will help the transition to  
dexterity go down easier. So more go go energy for Deco, than stop  
energy :) I know deco seems too far off by some but as far as I can  
see most of the code for Deco is there it's just in the process of  
being reintegrated with p.a.toolbar so it's usable again, and that  
work is already underway by Rok. I'm no expert but I'd say we're  
closer to Deco than we are to p.a.ct. Rok?




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Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

T. Kim Nguyen — 2012-05-25T05:48:11

Since I seem to have added fuel to the fire here, I would like to clarify that I am NOT trying to add stop-energy: I would, however, like everyone to consider whether or not each added feature improves our ease-of-adoption and ease-of-continuing-to-use-Plone stories.  

Kim

On May 24, 2012, at 8:00 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:



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Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Dylan Jay — 2012-05-25T01:00:37


If you are going to have AT and p.a.ct types side by side you will  
have two Events, two news items etc. Thats pretty confusing.

Why not a release where Dexterity is in the core with the schema  
editor to support any additional types integrators want to create but  
the standard types are still AT? Then plugin authors don't have to  
support both dexterity without deco and dexterity with deco. In fact  
lots of plugins go away with deco so even less work would need to  
happen overall.


I fear converting all the standard AT objects to dexterity is not  
going to be a low-cost-of-upgrade release.




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Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Jon Stahl — 2012-05-25T00:54:50

A couple of friendly amendments to Eric's observations:


... and, obviously, the benefits of Dexterity (e.g. TTW schema
editing, filesystem roundtripping, behaviors) won't be available to
that content.

IMHO, we probably do want to organize/document a concerted effort to
get add-on developers to upgrade/refactor/create Dexterity-versions of
their important affected products. The earlier we start that, and the
better directions we provide, the sooner it will happen.


$0.02,
jon

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Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Eric Steele — 2012-05-24T23:38:53

Archetypes is not vanishing. It's just not what Plone will use by default.
Any existing content created with it and schemaextender will still work, but
will require that those packages be installed first.  

Given the above, I firmly believe that substantial layout changes are the
biggest migration headache. See: Plone 3.  

Given that, I'd like us to have a low-cost-of-upgrade release including the
already in core Dexterity and Diazo that those unwilling to go through a larger
upgrade can happily sit on for some time. See: Plone 2.5.

Do not get me wrong, I absolutely want Deco in Plone. But from a project management standpoint, I think a tight – in both scope and timeline – release makes sense here. We're reaching a point where there are a number of backwards-incompatibile code cleanups in the works that would dramatically simplify things for integrators/developers. Deco and Dexterity are in core, FWT-approved, in use, and with a focused effort, we can polish them to 100% awesome. While it's nowhere n

Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Dylan Jay — 2012-05-24T22:25:54


I think you miss the point. From an outside perspective an upgrade to
dexterity with p.a.ct is not really an upgrade. It will look and feel
the same as before except lots of plugins such as those that rely on
schema extender will no longer work. You will get the ability to
create content types but you can also get that now by installing
dexterity as an add on.
Think of python3. Why has it taken so long to be supported? Because it
gives you no immediate end user benefit even though it's a "good"
change.
I'm installing plone 4,2 in production but turning p.a.collections off
because even though it's nicer it doesn't have table functionality yet
and it's not compatible with easy newsletter so will be confusing.
I can see that creating p.a.ct is not that hard so why not? But I
think the effort that goes into polishing it and creating upgrades
will be a lot.
Also consider p a ct will create exactly the situation you are trying
to solve. Why would I upgrade my add ons to be compatible with p a ct
when deco is rig

Re: It's time to talk Plone 5

Sean Upton — 2012-05-24T17:27:09

Because we need to phase Archetypes out of Plone's learning curve --
it creates TMTOWDTI problem for add-on developers.  There should be
one-right-way to create content types, and it makes it arguably easier
if the core content types are built using the same technology as
add-ons.  Only supporting AT for integrating older add-ons is a
reasonable way to get here.

Sean

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Re: Deprecated Unit Test Methods in Plone core

Héctor Velarde — 2012-05-24T12:10:45

thank you, Jon; that makes me feel better :-)

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