gmane.comp.web.services.soa.yahoo-1

Re: Steven presents on REST of SOA

Steve Jones — 2008-12-03T20:32:30

2008/12/3 Nick Gall public.gmane.org>: The context here was the Mark said this this was "all" the evidence he needed in terms of REST adoption. That reference has NOTHING to do with proving the statement in the millions its like a Chinese Economist piece..... more on that concept in a bit. I'm sure lots do, not sure how many are 100% compliant with everything though (e.g. the Yahoo and Google APIs have been said by some to be not 100% RESTful). Hell we've got some pretty massive REST stuff on the Webside at work (and I mean MASSIVE). But from a statistics point of view this is just Chinese Economics. This is the argument that says "there are billions of people in China and some must do X therefore given its from a billion its must be millions". Statistically the concept that "millions of developers" do REST (specifically the Hypermedia...engine....state bit) can NOT be inferred from the statement that SOME people who have created SOME of the pages have done it that

Re: Gartner note on WOA (Web-Oriented Architecture) just published

Michael Poulin — 2008-12-03T20:48:37

I am not sure how WS-I Basic Profile helps in finding applications in the Net but recent release of IBM's Dynamic Process Edition certainly does. The process' actions specify only required business functionality (not the WSDL) and the Edition looks-up in the Service Registry/Repository for particular service meeting the requirements, on the fly. Actually, this is the same way, at last, that CORBA Trading Object Service used 11 years ago. The UDDI's solution for this task was quite bad from the very beginning. - Michael ________________________________ From: A W public.gmane.org> To: service-orientated-architecture-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 7:32:57 PM Subject: Re: [service-orientated-architecture] Gartner note on WOA (Web-Oriented Architecture) just published This is common on different application such supply chain magenta. Please visit the WS-I profile for More details All the best Ashraf Galal On Fri, Nov 28, 2008

Re: Steven presents on REST of SOA

Gervas Douglas — 2008-12-03T19:56:34

Nick, I must admit I enjoyed your logical approach - I guess even 1% of a billion-odd would be a lot. It is easy to forget the vast scale of the Web. Nick, you would have made a great lawyer, if I may so observe... :) Gervas --- In service-orientated-architecture-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org, "Nick Gall" ...> wrote: http://www.heartratemonitor.co.uk/hrmselector/comparisontable_search_form4.php percentage I think point I'll all now short of WAY short, exemplify do with just me, whatsoever. "purely makes go out count. But, with that at websites from estimating the that application-to-application on doing person who Mark had http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/message/11892), "millions".' to do contributed to system -- ignoring ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Tradition

Re: Steven presents on REST of SOA

Nick Gall — 2008-12-03T17:09:57

Somehow I had a feeling that someone other than you wrote that bullet. http://www.heartratemonitor.co.uk/hrmselector/comparisontable_search_form4.php I wholeheartedly agree that most websites that comprise the WWW aren't implemented in a fully RESTful way. We can leave the debate regarding what percentage for another day. My point is that even if the "vast vast majority" of websites aren't fully RESTful, that still means that some (perhaps tiny) percentage of websites are fully RESTful, and a somewhat greater percentage (but perhaps still a small minority) are at least partially RESTful. I think we agree on this (see below). Again, no need to quibble about percentages, for the sake of the point I'll make below, let's agree that the "vast vast majority" of people do NOT implement websites in a fully RESTful way. But let's also agree that at least some tiny percentage DO implement websites in a substantially or wholly RESTful way. Ahhh... but there still is a bit of contradiction left. Though we all now

Re: Gartner note on WOA (Web-Oriented Architecture) just published

A W — 2008-12-03T19:32:57

This is common on different application such supply chain magenta. Please visit the WS-I profile for More details All the best Ashraf Galal On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Nick Gall public.gmane.org> wrote:

Re: SOA Governance Maturity Model

babakh — 2008-12-03T14:54:31

The main point of the blog is SOA governance maturity process. In terms of adoption, rates vary by geos. In NA and western Europe (including the UK), the adoption rates have been rising for the last 2 years. Many vendors have started to see adoption pick up in emerging markets as well. In my opinion, SOA governance is a major issue in successful SOA adoption: * SOA adoption is tough and can be very frustrating to customers. To persist the program and making sure it doesn't get derailed, governance is necessary to effectively promote SOA against costs, changes... using concrete metrics. * SOA adoption gets bumpy, because the sponsors didn't plan for changes properly. This is a huge problem especially in complex environments where there are multiple concurrent streams and change puts stress on the teams. Effective SOA governance plans for changes proactively through PPM and asset dependency/relationships impact analysis. Babak Hosseinzadeh babak-VNEmlb9KZWdpEWg/Jp0smOqUGfbH9hYC< at >public.gma

Re: SOA Governance Maturity Model

babakh — 2008-12-03T10:45:40

(1) I make a distinction between SOA & its Governance. The main point of my post is that there is a pattern and maturity process to SOA Governance. (2) Don't see a necessity for "rephrasing". SOA Governance is challenging and remains a barrier to successful adoption. Lack of SOA governance is a common reason for failure. No news here... (3) "SOA" has been around for more than a decade now. It is relatively mature, because SOA awareness is significantly higher than for example 5 years ago; there are loads of reference material, best practices, design methodologies, newer generations of tooling, customer case studies, self-proclaimed experts... and the vendor ecosystem has already gone through consolidation. --- In service-orientated-architecture-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org, Michael Poulin ...> wrote: Governance "remains one of the most challenging barriers and key causes of SOA failure..." Governance?.. Model model.html ------------------------------------ Yaho

Re: SOA Governance Maturity Model

babakh — 2008-12-03T14:14:25

1. The main point of the post is that there is a pattern and process to SOA Governance. 2. It is widely acknowledged that SOA Governance is key to successful SOA adoption. No news there and I don't see a point in your rephrasing. 3. I make a distinct separation between SOA & its governance. In terms of relative maturity of SOA, the basis of my assertion is as follows: * SOA awareness is quite high (particularly in developed markets and growing). Five years ago, I would have to start the conversation with an introduction to SOA. This isn't the case anymore. Now, most conversations are about readiness, feasibility, approach, implementation/delivery... * There are lots of references, case studies, best practices, service providers, methodologies, standards, tools, and other assets around SOA. Some of the standards are in their second or third version. The tools are in their second or third generation. * The vendor ecosystem has already gone through some consolidation. Now

Re: policy-driven security

henryk mozman — 2008-12-03T13:04:56

Thank you Michael for your sponse. Is XACML the only viable approach to policy-driven SOA security ? Henryk --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Michael Poulin public.gmane.org> wrote: From: Michael Poulin public.gmane.org> Subject: Re: [service-orientated-architecture] policy-driven security To: service-orientated-architecture-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 5:41 AM Henryk, this is not much different from the application security (including all interfaces and UI, business logic layer, and data access). Since policies are usually expressed via rules, you can automate not only policy creation and storage but also development and run-time policy enforcement (though the latter is managerial, not governance function) In Governance, you have to identify types of risk and threats, define mitigating and remediating means (methods, instruments/ tools, controls), and specify the security

Re: Re: Roch Clarifies Some Key Terms

Michael Poulin — 2008-12-03T10:09:03

I agree with Rob. However, coupling between sender and recipient in EDA is shifted into more delicate area of intentions (sender) and interests (receiver). How technically quantify these categories is a question. - Michael ________________________________ From: Rob Eamon public.gmane.org> To: service-orientated-architecture-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 8:42:39 PM Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] Re: Roch Clarifies Some Key Terms Not a bad set of definitions. A couple of discussion items: EDA is not necessarily pub/sub. EDA does not result in "completely decoupled" systems. In a brokered/intermedia ted approach, they are more loosely coupled, but are still coupled in two ways: 1) the messages they exchange; 2) the mechanism over which they exchange them. While the recipient doesn't care exactly where the message originated, it cares that *something* originates it and does so via the intermediary to which it is con

Re: Steven presents on REST of SOA

Steve Jones — 2008-12-03T08:50:06

Yup. Firstly I didn't write that slide (a chap at work called Ben Scowen did) because I wanted to make sure I got a REST fan writing stuff rather than a REST cynic, I'll pass on your comments. Secondly the WWW is the biggest RESTful system out there... BUT as I said in the voice over the majority of the Web _isn't_ implemented as a REST. In theory WWW is _all_ RESTful but in practice it isn't (e.g. http://www.heartratemonitor.co.uk/hrmselector/comparisontable_search_form4.php should be a straight parametrised GET but is a POST and the "Search Again" doesn't include the previously selected elements). My point in the discussion with Mark is that most people (the vast vast majority) do not implement Websites in a RESTful way, even though WWW is inherently RESTful by its Fielding definition. This is the same as the way that lots of people implement WS-* as RPC even though its inherently Document based. Not really a contradiction its a question of theory v practice, in theory Mark is right, in practice I am

Re: SOA Governance Maturity Model

Anne Thomas Manes — 2008-12-03T01:53:18

Agreed. I stipulate that SOA is not yet relatively mature. I also stipulate that governance (or lack thereof) is not a major impediment yet. Adoption remains the biggest hurdle. Anne On 12/2/08, Michael Poulin public.gmane.org> wrote: ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> Your use of Yahoo

Re: Roch Clarifies Some Key Terms

Rob Eamon — 2008-12-02T20:42:39

Not a bad set of definitions. A couple of discussion items: EDA is not necessarily pub/sub. EDA does not result in "completely decoupled" systems. In a brokered/intermediated approach, they are more loosely coupled, but are still coupled in two ways: 1) the messages they exchange; 2) the mechanism over which they exchange them. While the recipient doesn't care exactly where the message originated, it cares that *something* originates it and does so via the intermediary to which it is connected. -Rob ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service

Re: SOA Governance Maturity Model

Michael Poulin — 2008-12-02T18:32:49

I allow myself to re-phrase Babak: the absence or shortage of SOA Governance "remains one of the most challenging barriers and key causes of SOA failure..." Interesting, how SOA can reach a "relative maturity" without Governance?.. - Michael ________________________________ From: babakh public.gmane.org> To: service-orientated-architecture-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 3:16:48 PM Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] SOA Governance Maturity Model Successful SOA rollout is dependent on SOA Governance. Despite the relative maturity of SOA, SOA Governance remains one of the most challenging barriers and key causes of SOA failure... You can read more on this subject at http://soa-biz. blogspot. com/2008/ 12/soa-governanc e-maturity- model.html Thanks! Babak Hosseinzadeh babak< at >newbridgestra tegy.com

Re: Re: van Hoof on Self-Contained Messages

Gregg Wonderly — 2008-12-02T17:16:06

I think it depends on how you and others use that row of data. Practically, one copy of the "real" data is what you want in a system. If you send the data around in messages, what do you do about the moments that some other part of the system is changing that data in the database while it is being transported elsewhere? System design has to come into play here, more than "sending the ID is bad". Sometimes its the right thing to do in certain environments. A plug for Jini and Java mobile code since I haven't had a chance to do this lately... In a Jini based system, I'd actually send a delegate object to the other end which included, in the mobile code implementation of an interface, the ability to use a facade pattern to access the data in the database, and update it there. The user of the object would have no idea that the object was a facade. But only when you have the power of mobile code and other aspects of Jini/Java available to you can you consider such simplifying constructs in you

Re: Steven presents on REST of SOA

Nick Gall — 2008-12-02T15:17:15

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 7:02 AM, Gervas Douglas public.gmane.org> wrote: Steve, I'm going through the slides right now. So far they are excellent. This particular bullet on slide 22 caught my eye: "The World Wide Web is therefore inherently RESTful and the largest example of a REST based system." Amen to that brother! That reminded me of the debate Steve and Mark had back in early November. In one post ( http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/message/11892 ), Steve asserted: 'Your references are about purely websites, this has NOTHING to do with proving your statement on REST adoption being in the "millions".' In my mind, saying the WWW is inherently RESTful and is the largest example of a REST-based system strongly implies that Mark's references to websites, which are what make up the WWW after all, has at least SOMETHING to do with REST adoption. How could all these web site designers/developers have contributed to the emergence of th

SOA Governance Maturity Model

babakh — 2008-12-02T15:16:48

Successful SOA rollout is dependent on SOA Governance. Despite the relative maturity of SOA, SOA Governance remains one of the most challenging barriers and key causes of SOA failure... You can read more on this subject at http://soa-biz.blogspot.com/2008/12/soa-governance-maturity-model.html Thanks! Babak Hosseinzadeh babak-VNEmlb9KZWdpEWg/Jp0smOqUGfbH9hYC< at >public.gmane.org ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email

Re: Steven presents on REST of SOA

Nick Gall — 2008-12-02T14:56:35

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 7:02 AM, Gervas Douglas public.gmane.org> wrote: These comments were my favorite part: Stefan Tilkov said... Steve Jones presents REST, and in related news, hell just froze over :-) 8:09 PM scott said... His tongue was firml in his cheek, and he had his fingers crossed. 8:23 PM

Re: Steven presents on REST of SOA

Steve Jones — 2008-12-02T13:25:58

And a follow up http://service-architecture.blogspot.com/2008/11/rest-of-soa-questions.html on some of the questions I was asked. Steve 2008/12/2 Gervas Douglas public.gmane.org>: ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com

Steven presents on REST of SOA

Gervas Douglas — 2008-12-02T12:02:24

Roch Clarifies Some Key Terms

Gervas Douglas — 2008-12-02T11:46:56

<about CEP and BPM and so on point to misconceptions about how the technologies work together. Here are a set of observations about EDA, SOA, CEP, BPM and BRMS that I have learned from applying all of these technologies to real-world business problems. They are related to an order processing example that should help explain how the technologies are used together as follows: . State is the status of a business process (where we are in an order process) . An event is a change in state meaningful to the business (a quote becoming an order) . Event driven architecture (EDA) is the design of systems to respond to events where a state change is published as a message and can be consumed by many message subscribers (a product order can independently trigger the warehouse management system to pick an item, a purchase order to a supplier and an email to the custome