gmane.comp.python.devel

Re: Accepting PEP 405 (Python Virtual Environments)

Vinay Sajip — 2012-05-26T02:53:02


It's now implemented in the default branch :-)

Regards,

Vinay Sajip

Re: doc change for weakref

Steven D'Aprano — 2012-05-26T01:55:49

What specific part of the docs are you planning to change?

My guess is that you want to change this start of the third paragraph:

http://docs.python.org/py3k/library/weakref.html

[quote]
A weak reference to an object is not enough to keep the object alive: when the 
only remaining references to a referent are weak references, garbage 
collection is free to destroy the referent and reuse its memory for something 
else.
[end quote]

I don't think that should be changed. It makes no promises except that weak 
refs won't keep an object alive. Everything else is an implementation detail, 
as it should be.




I think you're making a distinction here that we should not make. Reference 
counting *is* a garbage collector (even if gc-bigots like to sneer at ref 
counting as "not a real gc"), and implementations with such a ref counting gc 
will not always distinguish the two states "strong refs are gone" and "object 
is reclaimed".

I don't believe that we need to make promises about the exact timing of when 
wea

Re: doc change for weakref

Tim Delaney — 2012-05-25T22:01:45


I think this could be misleading - it could be read as weakrefs are gone as
soon as all strong refs are gone if there are no cycles. It's
CPython-specific.

IIRC this was exactly Ethan's issue on python-list - he'd made the
assumption that weakrefs went away as soon as all strong refs were gone,
which broke on other Python implementations (and would have also broken if
he'd had cycles).

How about: weakrefs are invalidated only when the object is destroyed,
which is dependent on the garbage collection method implemented.

That then prevents an implementation from invalidating weakrefs before GC -
however, since the object would then be completely unreachable (except by C
code) I'm not sure it matters.

Tim Delaney

Re: sys.implementation

Eric Snow — 2012-05-25T19:55:40

Thanks Barry, and everyone who chimed in!  This PEP is a whole lot
better because of the feedback of this community.  I'm hopeful that it
will be a good vehicle to make life easier for the other
implementations.


I'll do that tonight.

-eric

Re: Accepting PEP 405 (Python Virtual Environments)

Vinay Sajip — 2012-05-25T18:29:57


I believe it is ready to integrate now. I aim to do it tomorrow (26 May) a.m.
UTC, so that it can make the next alpha.

Regards,

Vinay Sajip

Re: sys.implementation

Barry Warsaw — 2012-05-25T18:23:58


As the newly self-appointed PEP 421 czar, I hereby accept this PEP.

Eric, you've done a masterful job at balancing and addressing the input from
the Python development community, and the PEP looks great.  I have not yet
reviewed the patches in issue 14673, but the last message on that item
indicates the patch is not yet up-to-date with the PEP description.

Please update the issue, and if possible, let's get it landed before Sunday's
alpha 4.

Congratulations.
-Barry

http://bugs.python.org/issue14673

Re: Volunteering to be PEP czar for PEP 421,sys.implementation

Barry Warsaw — 2012-05-25T18:16:18


I received no objections, so I've claimed BDFL-Delegate on this PEP.  I am
doing a little bit more research, but I'm nearly ready to pronounce on this.

Cheers,
-Barry

Rietveld update

2012-05-25T17:57:51

As some have probably noticed: I updated the Rietveld version that we use to
the current code base. There have been a few incompatible changes (schema, GAE
API) which I hope I resolved. If you find new problems, please report them
to the meta tracker.

Regards,
Martin

Re: doc change for weakref

Antoine Pitrou — 2012-05-25T17:46:27

On Fri, 25 May 2012 10:21:39 -0700
Ethan Furman <ethan< at >stoneleaf.us> wrote:

How about: weakrefs are invalidated when the object is destroyed,
either as a product of all the strong references being gone or the
object being reclaimed by the :term:`cyclic garbage collector
<garbage collection>`.

Regards

Antoine.

Re: doc change for weakref

Benjamin Peterson — 2012-05-25T17:45:15

2012/5/25 Ethan Furman <ethan< at >stoneleaf.us>:

 I think this is fine.

doc change for weakref

Ethan Furman — 2012-05-25T17:21:39

I'd like to make a slight doc change for weakref to state (more or less):

    weakrefs are not invalidated when the strong refs
    are gone, but rather when garbage collection
    reclaims the object

Should this be accurate for all implementations, or should it be more 
along the lines of:

    weakrefs may be invalidated as soon as the strong refs
    are gone, but may last until garbage collection reclaims
    the object

~Ethan~

Re: cpython: simplify and rewrite the zipimport part of 702009f3c0b1 a bit

Antoine Pitrou — 2012-05-25T17:14:31

On Fri, 25 May 2012 18:57:57 +0200
Georg Brandl <g.brandl< at >gmx.net> wrote:


+1, this surprised me too.

Regards

Antoine.

Re: cpython: simplify and rewrite the zipimport part of 702009f3c0b1 a bit

Georg Brandl — 2012-05-25T16:57:57

Am 25.05.2012 07:54, schrieb benjamin.peterson:

This is probably minor, but wouldn't it make more sense to have those
constants uppercased?  At least that's the general style we have in
the codebase for enum values.

(There's one exception, but also recently committed, in posixmodule.c
for the utime_result enum.  Maybe that could also be fixed.)

Georg

Re: Accepting PEP 405 (Python Virtual Environments)

Georg Brandl — 2012-05-25T16:46:19

Am 25.05.2012 10:44, schrieb Nick Coghlan:

Great!  Please remember that the next 3.3 alpha is scheduled for this
weekend, so please let me know in which timescale you plan to implement
this PEP.  If you want to commit it before this alpha, I can shift it
by a few days, but not a whole week since I'm on vacation for one week
from June 2nd.

Georg

Summary of Python tracker Issues

Python tracker — 2012-05-25T16:07:06

ACTIVITY SUMMARY (2012-05-18 - 2012-05-25)
Python tracker at http://bugs.python.org/

To view or respond to any of the issues listed below, click on the issue.
Do NOT respond to this message.

Issues counts and deltas:
  open    3440 ( +8)
  closed 23254 (+58)
  total  26694 (+66)

Open issues with patches: 1455 


Issues opened (44)
==================

#11804: expat parser not xml 1.1 (breaks xmlrpclib)
http://bugs.python.org/issue11804  reopened by xrg

#14852: json and ElementTree parsers misbehave on streams containing m
http://bugs.python.org/issue14852  opened by Frederick.Ross

#14853: test_file.py depends on sys.stdin being unseekable
http://bugs.python.org/issue14853  opened by gregory.p.smith

#14854: faulthandler: fatal error with "SystemError: null argument to 
http://bugs.python.org/issue14854  opened by zbysz

#14855: IPv6 support for logging.handlers
http://bugs.python.org/issue14855  opened by cblp

#14856: argparse: creating an already defined subparsers does not rais
http://bugs.python.org

Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only.

Nick Coghlan — 2012-05-25T13:36:35

The key things to remember at this point:

1. There's every chance Microsoft will reverse this decision, for all
the reasons they introduced the Express editions of Visual Studio in
the first place (e.g. to stop haemorrhaging hobbyist developers to
other ecosystems where development tools aren't a profit centre). The
collective "WTF?!" from third parties at their current approach
(eloquently expressed by Peter Bright over at Ars) is going to be hard
for even the most passionate Metro advocates to ignore.
2. It's going to be at least 18 months before CPython's Windows build
is likely to migrate to VS2011, and if there's still no desktop app
support in the Express edition at that time, that will be a strong
argument against migrating.

Cheers,
Nick.

Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only.

Curt Hagenlocher — 2012-05-25T12:17:19


But will it be able to target Windows XP?

http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/690617/bug-apps-created-with-crt-and-mfc-vnext-11-cannot-be-used-on-windows-xp-sp3

(Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, but I know nothing about either of these
topics.)

-Curt

Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only.

2012-05-25T12:06:22

This isn't actually better documentation, since it talks about the future,
without being "official" (i.e. it's Peter Bright's opinion, not a Microsoft
announcement).

I hereby predict that Microsoft will revert this decision, and that VS Express
11 will be able to build CPython.

Regards,
Martin

Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only.

Joao S. O. Bueno — 2012-05-25T11:43:32

It is better documented here, and seems something to start thinking about:

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/

Accepting PEP 405 (Python Virtual Environments)

Nick Coghlan — 2012-05-25T08:44:14

As the latest round of updates that Carl and Vinay pushed to the PEPs
repo have addressed my few remaining questions, I am accepting PEP 405
for inclusion in Python 3.3.

Thanks to all involved in working out the spec for what to model
directly on virtualenv, and areas where cleaner solutions could be
found given the power to tweak the behaviour of the core interpreter
and the standard library.

Cheers,
Nick.

Re: VS 11 Express is Metro only.

2012-05-24T22:36:47

I think it's too early to guess what the final release of Visual Studio
11 Express will or will not include.

Regards,
Martin