gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming

Re: What other professions pair?

John Maxwell — 2008-12-04T03:08:44

Really? I've never had that problem; there're the people who are like me, and the people who are wrong... -John (S.C.F.T.H.I.)

Re: Can one become "Too agile"?

John Roth — 2008-12-04T01:29:09

Matt said: When the release plan changes every week because the marketing priorities flap in the breeze of sales promising the customer whatever is needed to get the sale, then nothing gets done. Some amount of stability is needed to build and ship a product. This particular source of instability is fairly well known, and leads to massive frustration and a reputation among the customers of never living up to the promises anyway. John Roth ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: m

Re: What other professions pair?

George Dinwiddie — 2008-12-03T23:59:05

John, I doubted your conclusion on the prevalence of Asperger's, but this statement I know is bullshit. I'm a coach and I'm not a "people person" by nature. I work at it. And /most/ people have a hard time understanding that other people are not like them. I've seen Jerry Weinberg point that out over and over and I've begun to notice it for myself. I think these broad statements are a cop-out. We may not be in control of our natural preferences, but we get to choose our behavior. - George

Re: Re: Need advice preparing the waters for XP

Pieter Nagel — 2008-12-03T23:12:50

Oh, I'm in total agreement. Our PM's claims to the contrary leave me alternatively sad and vexed. ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:extremeprogramming-digest< at >yahoogroups.com mailto:extremeprogramming-fullfeatured< at >yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: Can one become "Too agile"?

Matt — 2008-12-03T22:45:00

Ron, --- In extremeprogramming< at >yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries ...> wrote: seem True. At my last job we used to have the wild screaming of Sales that changed tune every week. Part of the reason for this was our unpredictable delivery of features. They honestly felt that the only way to get anything was throw everything at the wall, scream loudly about all of it and hope something came back that they could close a sale with. Where I am now, we are far more predictable. So rather than waste our time with trivial things, Sales tends to bring truly valuable things to the table. I say predictable but maybe transparency is part of the deal. The boss doesn't just say "no... that's not going to happen" he says "we aren't going to do that now, here is why" and explains what we are working on. At my last job, the boss never said no. Matt ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogra

Re: Can one become "Too agile"?

Adam Sroka — 2008-12-03T22:39:47

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Ron Jeffries xprogramming.com> wrote: In my experience this is the area where sales/support and marketing need to interface. There has to be some way to reconcile, "This is what customers are saying/asking for" and "Here is what the market needs/wants." Market needs can be very important in the middle to long term. Supporting existing customers is equally important in the short to middle term. A successful product is likely to need to address both and thus to have some rationale for reconciling them when they differ markedly. ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:

Re: Can one become "Too agile"?

Ron Jeffries — 2008-12-03T22:27:14

Hello, Matt. On Wednesday, December 3, 2008, at 5:20:04 PM, you wrote: Yes. But not if you change direction on each phone call. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com www.xprogramming.com/blog I could be wrong. I frequently am. ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:extremeprogramming-digest< at >yahoogroups.com mailto:extremeprogramming-fullfeatured< at >yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of

Re: Re: Testing non-deterministic methods

Keith Ray — 2008-12-03T22:25:02

FWIW, I think one of the sources of bugs in programs' relying on random numbers, is when the numbers are "untypical" but theoretically possible -- e.g. all the "random" numbers are zero, or all are a large number, or are all even numbers, or all are prime, etc. It's not that the numbers are buggy, it's the logic that assumes these untypical sequences won't happen. On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 2:07 PM, Julian Hall dsf.org.uk> wrote:

Re: Can one become "Too agile"?

Matt — 2008-12-03T22:20:04

John, --- In extremeprogramming< at >yahoogroups.com, John Roth ...> wrote: call For the sake of discussion... why is this a bad thing? It would seem that the desires of a Real Customer might be important. Matt ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:extremeprogramming-digest< at >yahoogroups.com mailto:extremeprogramming-fullfeatured< at >yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Ya

Re: Testing non-deterministic methods

Julian Hall — 2008-12-03T22:07:44

do you exacerbated in mentioned map, this However, they development you realistic map, this wouldn't drive algorithm on make sure, for TDD, As this is something I've been working on recently, I thought I'd share my experiences. The problem domain of my current project is machine learning, specifically neural networks and "simulated annealing" optimization of parameters. Some of the tests I've found useful: * A by-hand calculated example. You can do simple neural networks by hand and work out how an iteration or two should cause the network to be updated. * Tests designed to force the algorithm down specific paths. I've been using implementations of java.util.Random that return a hand-picked sequence that causes the situation I want to test. * "Gold standard" tests: run the algorithm on a particular input with a standard Random seeded to a known value, then check the result manually. If it's acceptable, set up a test that breaks if it changes. A slight variant of this suggestion: this wouldn't drive

Re: Can one become "Too agile"?

Olof Bjarnason — 2008-12-03T22:04:58

"The Release Plan is set at the Release Planning meeting. That doesn't mean that it's cast in concrete, but too many changes indicate that there isn't really a customer/management committment to a product. I suspect there are a number of possible causes for that kind of instability, but Ive only seen a few documented. One is the Sales / Marketing flapping in the wind of the "last phone call from a customer" syndrome." I think I will print that out and frame it on my work wall, if I dare to do so :) Thanks for a great moment-of-recognition! cya 2008/12/3 Adam Sroka gmail.com>: ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change sett

Re: Can one become "Too agile"?

Adam Sroka — 2008-12-03T21:54:26

Not necessarily. There are a number of reasons that early requirements can change drastically. Much of the power of XP is in the ability to allow those changes to happen and still track them effectively. To me, frequent changes mean that the customer is still thinking about the problem we are trying to solve. I don't think that is a bad thing. Where it could be bad is if the changes keep oscillating between two or more different viewpoints (e.g. multiple forces within the customer side or an indecisive customer.) Or maybe I just haven't really grokked this thing yet. Maybe there are a lot of possibilities for this new technology and I haven't decided which is the most valuable. Traditional product management would say that it is too early to develop, but with XP I think we can still deliver value incrementally while we figure it out. ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscrib

Re: What other professions pair?

Dave Smith — 2008-12-03T19:19:12

If you're looking for data points, I've worked with or near 4 people in the last 5 years who've been diagnosed with mild Aspergers (plus a bunch more that people suspected had it). In the right context, each was an excellent developer. Dave [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:extremeprogramming-digest< at >yahoogroups.com mailto:extremeprogramming-fullfeatured< at >yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an emai

[ANN] XPSD Meeting - Thursday, Dec 4th < at > 6:00PM

banshee858 — 2008-12-03T19:12:28

This month at Extreme Programming San Diego (XPSD), Carlton Nettleton will show us some techniques borrowed from the Six Sigma world to plan and monitor Agile transitions. The meeting will take place at Cardinal Health in San Diego at 6pm on Thursday, December 4th. ** Charting the Agile Transition ** These days people are spending a lot time and effort investigating Agile software development practices. Unfortunately, not much guidance is provided on what areas of the enterprise need focus when planning an Agile initiative. Where do we start? Planning, teamwork, communication, quality, engineering practices, the people or some combination of these? In addition, how can senior leadership and executive sponsors monitor the Agile initiative? Using tools derived from Lean Six Sigma, Carlton will lead participants through a series of exercises on how to gather the Voice Of The Customer (VOC) and translate the VOC into Critical To Quality (CTQ) requirements which are crucial for your enterprise to be successful

Re: Need advice preparing the waters for XP

banshee858 — 2008-12-03T18:22:29

Guess what? If you don't have a prioritized backlog you are not doing Scrum. You might be doing something iterative or incremental, but certainly not Scrum. Carlton ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:extremeprogramming-digest< at >yahoogroups.com mailto:extremeprogramming-fullfeatured< at >yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/in

Re: What other professions pair?

Pieter Nagel — 2008-12-03T16:00:57

My own opinion on these is: It's not the case that Asperger's is a common disease of which mild cases are common in the engineering community. Rather, Asperger's is an exageration or hypertrophy of otherwise totally normal human traits (which may be more common amongst engineers, ergo their over-amplified form may be more common too). Aspergers is the fuzzy line where something normal starts shading over into "too much". Nothing I write means that Asperger's isn't "real". By analogy: whether the Elephant Man's face is touched by "bone cancer" or "abnormal hypertrophied bone growths", either way: if it is a problem for him, it is a problem. But seeing them as hypertrophies does point the way to realising that maybe, in some contexts, they may still be adaptive in some sense. And that some of the problems may have more to do with society not being used to that particular volume knob being turned so far, rather than with "disease symptoms" in the narrow sense. In the preceding light, I see mild touches of

Re: What other professions pair?

John Roth — 2008-12-03T15:35:23

Chris Wheeler said: I don't have research numbers, and I'm not at all sure I'd trust them if I did: the whole area is contaminated by the gold rush to get some of that juicy autism funding. In other words, I think that the syndrome is vastly overdiagnosed, at least in the school system. None the less, I think that it does represent a significant tendency among the "old guard" in the profession: there really are more loners that you'd expect in the general population. I don't think that's so obvious in the younger generations. It's also something that people who are drawn to being leaders and coaches have a hard time with: they're people people by definition, and they have a hard time understanding that there are people who are not like them. John Roth ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To

Re: What other professions pair?

Chris Wheeler — 2008-12-03T14:37:58

Hi Dave, et al, I hope I didn't come across as insensitive - I realize that my original statement had some ambiguity. 'Is it real?' referred to 'Is it true that the proportion of Asperger's is higher among developers?' and not 'Is Asperger's a real condition'. Of the romantic notion, it is almost faddish or stylish amongst parents to label kids who are quirky or socially awkward but brainy as Asperger's 'sufferers' (probably the wrong word). Almost like it was faddish or stylish 10 years ago to label over-active kids as ADHD sufferers. Thanks for not calling me on my insensitivity, Chris. On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 9:31 AM, Dave Rooney mayford.ca> wrote: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

Re: What other professions pair?

Dave Rooney — 2008-12-03T14:31:02

Autism is a spectrum traditionally ranging from very low functioning at one end to Asperger's Syndrome at the other. It's also quite possible for a person to exhibit numerous characteristics of autism without actually being clinically diagnosed. Some people are just anti-social for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with autism. Yes, saying that it's Asperger's is a cop out. In over 20 years in the profession, I can only think of 2 people that I would possibly think may have shown characteristics of Asperger's. On quite a few occasions, though, I've experienced people who are uncomfortable with having their work scrutinized closely and often. Of these people, some got over it when they realized that it wasn't a bad thing. People want answers, and fitting something to what they see gives them answers (I'm sure others around me when I'm dealing with legacy code would think that I have Tourette's ;). BTW, I have some experience with this, since there is autism and Asperger's in my

Re: What other professions pair?

Chris Wheeler — 2008-12-03T14:10:16

I find lot's of blogs that corroborate this, but I can't find any real research numbers. Seems a romantic notion and a bit of a cop-out, but is it real? Chris. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:extremeprogramming-digest< at >yahoogroups.com mailto:extremeprogramming-fullfeatured< at >yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo!

Re: Agile toolset questions (particularly code inspections....)

Craig A — 2008-12-03T14:07:00

Appreciate the info - I'm aware of coding dojo's but I don't think it would work for our purposes here - we have a large team which is a mix of employees and external contractors, and all very geographically diverse. We could improve things for the employees, but tough to mandate something like this on external contractors, where part of the concern is. But a valid idea. Thanks. -- Craig. On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:06 AM, agileprog ymail.com> wrote: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming< at >eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe< at >eGroups.com ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/jo