gmane.comp.kde.events

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Valorie Zimmerman — 2013-05-24T22:54:59

Maarten, thanks so much for asking. I absolutely love the new images
of Konqui, and hope we use them many places.

However, I have to agree that using them as in your example is
unprofessional. It's so fun, I hate to say that! Sune has a great
point, though -- we have a well-known mascot, and changing that is a
branding faux-pax. I personally don't like Konqui and never did, but
that's not important.


This thread upset me enough to write a blogpost about it:
http://linuxgrandma.blogspot.com/2013/05/catalyst-leadership.html

My hope is that all of us will read the Catalyst page, and step up our
game here. Motivation is what keeps us going, keeps us contributing,
keeps KDE great! Let's not muck that up.

Valorie

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Eike Hein — 2013-05-24T20:37:28

I'm a bit wary of changing the mascot design, too. The angle I am
thinking about is that a mascot is a character, and characters
derive their value from the emotional bond someone has with them,
and such bonds may be injured if there's no continuity in the re-
cognizable identity of a character.

That's e.g. why cartoon shows pay significant attention to making
sure artists draw the characters with a high degree of visual con-
tinuity. I'm sure there are counter examples of when a character
redesign has been adopted successfully by an audience too, but I
think more often or not it causes that pang of "not really the
same anymore" or the feeling that it's not worth investing into a
particular incarnation of the character.

So to me "modernizing Konqui" would be more a question of impro-
ving the rendition of the existing character design to be less
affected by technical limitations of the day - using a better
renderer, improving the materials applied to the mesh, perhaps
small tweaks to the model or its rig t

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Sune Vuorela — 2013-05-24T20:25:13

I *love* the current konqi and it is a well known mascot. I do think
that changing it is the wrong thing to do.

We have something well known and we should keep it. And Tomaz can keep
his giant konqi outfit. And I can keep konqi plush toy who has attended
several Akademies.

If the mascot start to be a replacable thing, I'm not sure we can get it
as famous and 'out there'. If it becomes replacable, why would anyone
start making konqi plush toys? Large konqi outfits? <other merchandise>
When will the next new mascot come?

This is - more or less - my quick thoughts

/Sune
 - and thanks to Eike for dealing with the uglyness in the thread.


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Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Lydia Pintscher — 2013-05-24T19:11:49

On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Sven Burmeister
<sven.burmeister< at >gmx.net> wrote:

While I agree with your general point it does actually for example in
the smileys in text messages.


Cheers
Lydia

--
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
KDE Community Working Group / KDE e.V. board member
http://kde.org - http://open-advice.org

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Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Sven Burmeister — 2013-05-24T19:08:50

Am Freitag, 24. Mai 2013, 00:06:50 schrieb Oswald Buddenhagen:

I would actually agree with this. There should be no mascot in the GUI. No 
matter whether the old or new dragon(s) they do not look professional but 
toyish. They are mascots, so that's fine to some extent, but as somebody else 
pointed out, they are not the logo and only the logo should be part of the 
GUI.

If I remember correctly my Android phone does not show the mascot either in 
any part of the GUI but only as a progress indicator when updating the 
firmware.

Sven

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Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Lydia Pintscher — 2013-05-24T18:34:28

Thanks and sorry. I have been traveling. In the future please feel
free to poke me about such things on IRC, Jabber and co.


Cheers
Lydia

--
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
KDE Community Working Group / KDE e.V. board member
http://kde.org - http://open-advice.org

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Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Boudewijn Rempt — 2013-05-24T17:45:23

 

Thank you. I've been sitting on my hands, apart from mailing the CWG (of which Ingo used to be a member) -- but this is exactly what needed to happen. I am afraid that a considerable amount of damage has already been done by Oswald. As you say as a community, we need to grow some teeth.

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Eike Hein — 2013-05-24T17:02:22

I am tired of this warning having no teeth, and since none of
the list admins appear to involve themselves in this discussion
I've decided to turn on the mod bit for Mr. Buddenhagen.

The best defenses for his behavior are "But he's right!" and
"But he's just emotionally distraught over someone touching the
mascot!", and the first doesn't excuse being a dick about it
while the second I guess I just don't buy.

That leaves sysadmin power abuse: This community has a well-
established problem dealing with poisonous individuals because
we don't have anyone to ultimately make the call. I honestly
have no clue if sysadmins can either, but I'd say we try that
for once, and if anyone feels motivated enough by Mr.
Buddenhagen's plight - the list admins would have obvious
authority, for one - to reverse that decision, be my guest.


Cheers,
Eike

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Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Mario Fux KDE ML — 2013-05-24T09:35:15

Am Freitag 24 Mai 2013, 11.23:02 schrieb Oswald Buddenhagen:

Good morning Oswald


"Demotivation"? That's not the way this community works. Several people 
already directed you to the KDE Code of Conduct. Please go and read it. Here 
is a link:
http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/

[snip]

Thanks and best regards
Mario


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Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Luca Beltrame — 2013-05-24T09:32:00

In data venerdì 24 maggio 2013 02:03:29, Myriam Schweingruber ha scritto:


The announcement was in a very public place, see below.


See https://dot.kde.org/2012/12/08/contest-create-konqi-krita on the Dot (so, 
not exactly an obscure resource).

The completion was announced on the forum: 
http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=110100

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Oswald Buddenhagen — 2013-05-24T09:23:02

did it occur to you that this was *exactly* the point of my post? i
consider this a completely, fundamentally misdirected effort, and the
more i can demotivate its protagonists in this regard, the more of a
success it is.

On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 12:44:59AM +0200, Ingo Malchow wrote:
you would be surprised how little time people with a job and/or a life have
for following "community affairs". i read core-devel & frameworks-devel
(because that's where i'm still somewhat involved), promo to keep track
of (local) events, and ev-membership, because that's where the overall
community is represented best.

when somebody starts an initiative to change something so fundamental, i
expect them to properly think through whom and how they should ask about
it, and how to pro-actively communicate it to those who will be affected
by it.
(which reminds me of a certain scene from the hitchhiker's guide
involving bulldozers ...)

yeah, nice attempt to outsmart me.
from the perspective of the about dialog reader, the mascot+lo

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

geoff norgrove-humphries — 2013-05-24T10:16:35

I thought Kate was already a female dragon???

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Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Ingo Malchow — 2013-05-24T00:24:44

Am Freitag, 24. Mai 2013, 02:03:29 schrieb Myriam Schweingruber:

In the forum... like hopefully known now after at least this thread...


Noone decided that, i thought it might be a nice idea to try to revamp the 
rather outdated looking one, and maybe get a better one. Talked with some 
people who liked that idea, then thought it might also be a nice promo attempt 
for krita to make that contest only with krita artwork, attempted them, they 
also liked it, formulized, published on several blogs and finally the forum. 
Maybe even this ml, can't tell for sure though, as i don't archive ml's that 
long. This thread reminds me why...


See above.


That is the initial question of this thread. Or rather, a harsh variant of 
it... "should it be used for the whole KDE and when?" vs "who decides it will 
be used?". No single entity, i guess, but a whole bunch of them.


What is the target audience for a mascot at all? (Should be the first question)


Do some people lately have a problem reading? This thread was ob

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Myriam Schweingruber — 2013-05-24T00:03:29

Seems there are some questions here that go totally unanswered:

* Where was this contest started?
* Who decided we needed a redesign of our mascot?
* Who was informed of this (outside the forum?)?
* Who decides this will be used for the whole KDE?
*What is the target audience for this mascot?


Before calling each other names and use strong words, could we answer
all these questions, please?

Since all KDE would be affected by this redesign, should't at least
all eV members and the wider community have a say?

FWIW: I can totally imagine this be a mascot for KDE Edu, but I have
serious doubt it is suitable for KDE as a whole, the business oriented
part of KDE in particular.

Since KDE is the community and IIUC this redesign of our mascot is
meant to represent KDE as a whole, please do not take any decisions
without communicating this a tad better than the whole other renaming
and rebranding disasters...

In other words: don't change the mascot until all the above questions
are answered and the community is

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Eike Hein — 2013-05-23T22:49:21

(1) This thread starts out with a post that contains stuff like "I'm
    not sure where or when we should add it so I'm asking for feedback
    here.", how does that not constitute wider consultation? You've
    posted here, how has your opportunity to chime in been taken from
    you?

    If kde-promo isn't wide enough, how about politely suggesting
    alternative, broader venues?

(2) Disdainful bullshit like "farce" and "certain circles" doesn't
    consitute "aggressive sarcasm", it's just called "being an ass-
    hole", and you're too smart not to know better.

    If you think someone's acting naively or out of inexperience,
    use the pull of your seniority to guide them toward making better
    decisions so we don't lose their manpower. Don't teach them that
    old-timers are cranky fucks who don't do anything but resist
    change, or try to intimidate people into not doing anything, even
    if that includes not making mistakes.

    You're not beyond learning how this stuff works.


Cheers,

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Eike Hein — 2013-05-23T20:39:30

how ironic that this interpretation is entirely based on cultural gender

Personally I agree that the rendition of Katie is perhaps a little too on-
the-nose; I probably have one Y chromosome too many to act offended
but it's kind of annoying if the only way to acknowledge femininity is to
box it up in the usual cute-and-pink-dress way, even if I recognize it's a
convenient visual shorthand.

As for irony though, it's not like you're shy of sticking to your own
cultural reference frame when it suits you - i.e. the manga comment,
when no particular stylization is really neutral when it comes down to
it.


i consider this entire exercise an utter brainfart

Well, I'm sure everybody was waiting with bated breath to read what
Ossi would think of this - you know, given your impressive track record
and well-established qualifications when it comes to artwork contribu-
tions.


Cheers,
Eike

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Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Ingo Malchow — 2013-05-23T22:44:59

Am Freitag, 24. Mai 2013, 00:06:50 schrieb Oswald Buddenhagen:

You would be surprised how much more is happening in this entire community 
when you sneak out of your hole. And i must assume you sit in one, else you 
would have noticed that far earlier. There were blogposts, ton of feedback on 
the contest itself.
What it means to have such a change is indeed the question of the initial 
poster. Feedback like yours though is possibly hurting any evolution of KDE as 
whole and shows nothing more than disrespect for the work others in this 
community do.


The contest was never meant to have a final real replacement for our mascot 
(notice the word, don't confuse with logo). It was meant to provide 
alternatives. 
Considering the sort of feedback so far it seems to be a very good alternative 
indeed.

Oh, and my personal goal is driving KDE forward. I question yours.


Complete missunderstanding then, which shows how much you yourself thought out 
before writing that complete mess. We are talking about a masco

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Luca Beltrame — 2013-05-23T22:28:26

In data venerdì 24 maggio 2013 00:06:50, Oswald Buddenhagen ha scritto:


I'll add a few more "exlpanations" myself.


On a whim? The contest went around for a while. Just because you don't go 
around in the forums it doesn't mean there isn't any traffic going on.


To each his own. I'm a beginner programmer at best, and I would certainly 
*not* use this tone to comment on someone's code.  You don't really want a 
"Said the novice to the master of the art." type discussion, to paraphrase 
R.E. Howard. Likewise, this "sarcasm" is just hurtful and to be pretty much 
honest, worthless. 

What did it add to the discussion? None. Zero. It only stirred up stop energy 
(in fact I wonder what the original poster would think, after seeing all this 
ruckus).


These "certain circles" are simply part of the same community you're in. 
Secondly, "farce" is purely your opinion, therefore don't be surprised if you 
get negative reactions.
If you want to at least get taken seriously in this discussion, which is 
*nothing*

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Oswald Buddenhagen — 2013-05-23T22:06:50

fine, then i'll explain it to you.

you may notice that this is -promo, not -artists. on this list i would
expect people to have some basic understanding of trademarks (and yes,
konqi definitely *is* part of our trademark, even if not a registered
one), and what it means to change them on a whim, both from a messenging
perspective and a practical one.

second, you apparently think that The Artists have the absolute
authority on this matter. you may want to think about what you are
actually trying to do here, on a purely personal level.

and yes, i find this artwork personally awful, and a disastrous fit for
kde as a whole - i can already see the faces of the business users who
open the about dialog to be greeted with an oversized, flashy,
ridiculously looking logo.

and in case you wonder about my aggressive sarcasm: i just find it
amazing how far this farce has apparently gone in certain circles
without consultation with the wider kde community (that means, those who
are not explicitly interested in artwork

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Luca Beltrame — 2013-05-23T21:21:32

In data giovedì 23 maggio 2013 23:10:44, Maarten De Meyer ha scritto:


Personally I think yes. I would also add that IMO an announcement about this 
would just draw flames (subjectivity etc.) so probably a good idea would be to 
add said mascot to "new material".

Re: Use new Konqi mascot

Maarten De Meyer — 2013-05-23T21:10:44

Never works. :)
No harm in asking. (Or so I thought)


Nope. So do we change now or later (never)


With promo I had a dot story about Konqi in mind.
There has been no story for the winner of the contest. (Or I missed it)


Maybe I should have made more obvious that the statements I made about
the artwork are my own opinions.
I like the new mascot. Judging from you reply, you do not. That's fine :)

My post here was to ask if we should switch to the new style. And if
yes (IF) how that switch should be done.

Cheers
Maarten

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