gmane.comp.editors.vim.outliner

Re: Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Noel Henson — 2012-05-23T20:21:16

I got it now. For some reason I'm receiving email very slowly and some 
messages are arriving out of order.

Thanks.

Re: Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Jostein Berntsen — 2012-05-23T20:19:11

The plug notation is to avoid conflicts with the users own mappings or other
configurations like on Debian. It's a more recommended way to write mappings
than to use global ones. Like described in this VIm Wiki article:

http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/How_to_write_a_plugin

Jostein

Re: Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Noel Henson — 2012-05-23T20:03:29

Are we all thinking about the same thing? I believe you can change 
<localleader> to use whatever leader to the commands you wish to use. Or 
am I confused?

Noel

Re: Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Jostein Berntsen — 2012-05-23T19:53:51

This thread from Israel gives a good overview of things that should be
worked with for new versions of VO:

http://www.digipedia.pl/usenet/thread/11710/246/

List:

1.- All functions are global and there is no need to pollute the completion with them.
2.- Function's names are generic, some even use names directly from the help.
3.- Mappings overwrite existing mappings, even if set outside VO.
4.- We don't use <Plug> mappings, using them would help to replace the use of <localleader> for something else.


Jostein

Re: Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Jostein Berntsen — 2012-05-23T19:44:31

I am very much for rewriting global mappings to use the plug notation as you
have linked to. This will solve the localleader issues on different distros
and setups.

Re: Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Jostein Berntsen — 2012-05-23T19:42:25

The current issue tracker is at github:

$https://github.com/vimoutliner/vimoutliner/issues?direction=desc&page=1&sort=created&state=open

Jostein

Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Matej Cepl — 2012-05-23T19:16:22

Sure for somebody comma is important, and somebody needs InsertSpaceTime 
seriously. I am not in either of these camps, which is the reason why I 
believe high configurability is a virtue, rather than a hindrance.

BTW, both 
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.editors.vim.outliner/5519/focus=5520 
and http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.editors.vim.outliner/5888 are 
very interesting and I would love to investigate them more thoroughly. 
However, I am not sure what is the current VO issue tracker, where we 
could establish a issue and work on it there. http://www.vimoutliner.org 
seems kind of sad. We could either use Github's issue tracker (which I 
don't like, because contrary to code itself, it is a proprietary 
lock-in), or I can offer my own bugzilla 
(https://luther.ceplovi.cz/bugzilla/) and give you accounts there. 
What's the current issue tracker?

Best,

Matěj

Re: Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Steve Litt — 2012-05-23T17:00:42

On Wed, 23 May 2012 10:25:06 -0500, Noel Henson said:


Hi Noel,

Yes, as I remember, my original decision to go with comma comma
took about 24 hours thought, research and experimentation spread over a
week. I must have evaluated comma and found it wanting. I tried period
period, but your third finger's weaker, and it would have conflicted
with elipses. I think I rejected semicolon semicolon because of C,
though I don't remember the exact problem at the time. All the other
punctuation would have been too far a stretch, IIRC.

A piano has foot pedals to modify the sound of the keys. You don't know
how many times I've wished for a foot pedal input device to give me that
one more needed combination, in conjunction with the keyboard.

Thanks

SteveT

Steve Litt                *  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
                          *  http://twitter.com/stevelitt
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Noel Henson — 2012-05-23T15:25:06

This was an actual problem for me. Often I would design code (assembly 
language) in VO, including the code snippets. These looked something 
like this: subwf   var,w      and     dprint("test",i,j);

The single commas, which I tried for a while were extremely bothersome.

Noel

Re: Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Steve Litt — 2012-05-23T15:20:03

On Wed, 23 May 2012 12:07:14 +0200, Matej Cepl said:

That's interesting. My original reason for using ,, instead of , was
that I type so many commas in normal text and programming that I didn't
want that half-second wait on every one. Of course, I could make ,, be
a literal comma and then instead of having comma comma commands, just
have comma commands. I don't know which side of the tradeoff would be
better.

SteveT

Steve Litt                *  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
                          *  http://twitter.com/stevelitt
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Jostein Berntsen — 2012-05-23T11:30:30

Rewriting all global mappings in the code to plug notation would solve this
on all setups, like this:

nmap <silent><unique><buffer> ,,1 <Plug>VOfoldlevel1

Jostein

Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Noel Henson — 2012-05-23T11:00:36

ACK!

We spent countless hours determining what would work best for us turbo 
touch typers. Once you get over about 80-100 wpm, these little 
subtleties really matter.

Also, Vim and therefore VO let the actual user use whatever they want. 
It's the Linux way. However, the Debian package provider for VO should 
have updated the documentation to match or not modified the 
<localleader>. But, this is Linux. It's a community and not a 
dictatorship. The only real problem I had with using VO on Ubuntu is 
that it never worked. Things were always in the wrong place. So I'd 
install it. It wouldn't work. I'd uninstall it and then reinstall from 
my sources.

But hey, it's all good. We are all learning. I'd like to remind people 
that before VO there was no VO. We made it up.

Noel

Re: Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Jostein Berntsen — 2012-05-23T10:09:29

Israel Chauca had a suggestion in April last year for resolving this
issue in the forthcoming 0.3.8 by using the plug option:

http://www.digipedia.pl/usenet/thread/11710/243/

Should we use this method?

Jotein

Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Matej Cepl — 2012-05-23T10:07:14

How is ,,t faster than ,t (my current <Leader> is just a comma)?

Otherwise, see my reply to Noel. This has nothing to do with what value 
mapleader currently has, unless you decide to be intentionally different 
to make life difficult (and slower) for all those who are used to using 
their own (or default) <Leader>.

Matěj

Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Matej Cepl — 2012-05-23T10:03:16

I have intentionally wrote about <Leader> here, not , or ,, or \\. The 
same conflict between various plugins using <Leader>t would happen 
irrespective to what <Leader> is defined to be.

Matěj

Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Matej Cepl — 2012-05-23T10:01:08

Sure I know I can do that (or comment out whole Insert time function, 
which I did ATM), but I just wanted to have some dialog here, whether it 
is a common problem or not.

Matěj

Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Steve Litt — 2012-05-23T02:36:31

On Tue, 22 May 2012 20:41:13 -0500, Noel Henson said:

Yes, as I remember the basis for this was that in Debian, <localleader>
HAD TO default to \\. Hey, that's none of our business. IMHO we
all agreed to find some other way of representing comma comma, and
substitute that for all occurrences of <localleader> in our code,
so that our keyprefix would be none of Debian's or Vim's business, just
like Vim's and Debian's preference for <localleader> is none of our
business.

Thanks

SteveT

Steve Litt                *  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
                          *  http://twitter.com/stevelitt
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Steve Litt — 2012-05-23T02:31:30

On Wed, 23 May 2012 02:38:38 +0200, Matej Cepl said:

Hi Matej,

Oh geez, I thought we'd fixed this stuff already. We were supposed to
remove all references to <localleader> from all the code, and substitute
some kind of constant, which VimOutliner defines, that means comma
comma, now and forever, absolutely no business of anyone in the Vim
community or any distro packager or any other project.

The comma comma commands are *uniquely* part of VimOutliner, and not at
all part of Vim. Comma comma is a fundamental VimOutliner keystroke,
whereas \\ is Grandview or some other program. I'd state it this
strongly -- if it uses something other than comma comma, it's not
VimOutliner. The reasons for this are:

1) Authoring speed
2) Authoring speed
3) Authoring speed

As far as a single comma and a t, I have no knowledge of that being
part of VimOutliner at all.

Thanks

SteveT

Steve Litt                *  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
                          *  http://twitter.com/stevelitt
Troubleshooting Traini

Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Noel Henson — 2012-05-23T01:41:13

Not that I'm complaining, but I remember that a lot of the ,, commands 
were redefined in the Debian packages to be . commands. Steve nor I nor 
any of the other developers can take credit for this. I was shocked a 
couple of years (maybe 5) when I couldn't use VO from ubuntu.

Re: t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Noel Henson — 2012-05-23T01:28:39

We are wedded. LOL, change it in the new vimscript or change it in our 
vimscript. Use a script to do it so future updates to either are easy to 
modify.

It's sort of like the programs and games I run in Linux. In almost all 
of them, I use ^w to close the app or window or tab, but I have two or 
three that need ^q to close the app,

t ... how much we are wedded to it.

Matej Cepl — 2012-05-23T00:38:38

In my process of switching back to vim, I have found apparently quite 
popular (and very very mighty) package 
https://wincent.com/products/command-t, which conflicts with vimoutliner 
in <Leader>t mapping (which is used for rather less important IMHO 
functionality of entering time).

How much we are wedded to ,t being ours?

Matěj