gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general

Re: [DISCUSS] Crunch to join the Apache Incubator

Jakob Homan — 2012-05-25T18:26:56

I imagine we'll continue to evaluate and extend Crunch, whether as
part of Incubator or not.

I'm hopeful Crunch's incubation will turn out well and am confident
Josh will make sure it does.  After all, being willing to declare that
rejecting offers of help from experienced volunteers during the
incubator proposal is not "the normal Apache process" after having
contributed 10 patches definitely shows a willingness to do whatever
it takes to build the community the team wants in place.

Re: JIRA and communities

Marvin Humphrey — 2012-05-25T18:23:16

I claim it does both.


I'm *really* interested in ongoing Lucene development, but I can't take
following the Lucene dev list via email any more.  The signal-to-noise ratio
is horrible.

    Joe Sixpack updated LUCENE-1040
    Joe Sixpack updated LUCENE-1040
    Joe Sixpack updated LUCENE-1040
    Joe Sixpack updated LUCENE-1040
    Joe Sixpack updated LUCENE-1040
    Joe Sixpack updated LUCENE-1040
    Joe Sixpack updated LUCENE-1040
    Joe Sixpack updated LUCENE-1040
    Joe Sixpack reassigned LUCENE-1040
    Hans Wijnkuhler edited comment on LUCENE-1984 at 11/11/11 11:11 PM:
    Hans Wijnkuhler edited comment on LUCENE-1984 at 11/11/11 11:12 PM:
    Hans Wijnkuhler edited comment on LUCENE-1984 at 11/11/11 11:13 PM:
    Hans Wijnkuhler edited comment on LUCENE-1984 at 11/11/11 11:14 PM:
    Hans Wijnkuhler edited comment on LUCENE-1984 at 11/11/11 11:15 PM:
    Hans Wijnkuhler edited comment on LUCENE-1984 at 11/11/11 11:16 PM:
    Hans Wijnkuhler edited comment on LUCENE-1984 at 11/11/11 11:17 PM:

Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)

Arvind Prabhakar — 2012-05-25T18:03:39


It is unfortunate that you think this way. Bruce and Aaron have played a
foundational role in Flume and they deserve to be seated on the PPMC unless
they explicitly request to be removed. I welcome their contribution anytime
and hope that they chose to remain on the project.



Because I counted them as mentors and not PPMC. I am happy to include them
if they want to be counted as PPMC. Pardon me if I should not have made
this distinction. The one person who was left out inadvertently was Prasad
who recently got elected to PPMC.




You were counted because three months ago you announced that you would like
to stay with the project post graduation. I don't remember seeing any
communication from you stating your change of mind. That said, I respect
your choice either way.

Re: [DISCUSS] Crunch to join the Apache Incubator

Josh Wills — 2012-05-25T17:39:43

Hi Jukka,

Apologies for the delay, I had a vacation day. Replies inline.

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Jukka Zitting <jukka.zitting< at >gmail.com> wrote:

Indeed. Fixed.


Understood-- is there an example of the appropriate language?


Yes, git is our preference. I will get in touch with infra and
volunteer to do the repo management.

Re: JIRA and communities

Ralph Goers — 2012-05-25T17:32:59

On May 25, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:


I have no problem with Jira, it is a great tool.  My problem - specific to the way Flume does things - is that they also use the Review tool and you end up with a copy of a message from the Review tool and another copy of the same thing from Jira.  A LOT of those messages are pure noise.  The ones that do contain content do a poor job of quoting whatever is being commented on.  So the only way to really tell what is going on is to go into Jira and look at every issue.  

Ralph

JIRA and communities

Benson Margulies — 2012-05-25T15:37:54

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Steve Loughran
<steve.loughran< at >gmail.com> wrote:

I don't claim that JIRA helps, but I also don't accept the proposition
that JIRA hurts.

I think that we should focus on the community, not the tools. The
JIRA-oriented projects I follow have JIRA set to send all new issues,
and all new comments, to the dev list. So all community members, and,
in particular, all PMC members with a duty to supervise, see all the
traffic.

Meanwhile, some projects, with or without JIRA, just creep along
making small, incremental, changes and bugfixes. There's no grand
strategy or vision, and, as a result, not much to talk about most of
the time. Bugs and requests come in and people deal with them -- or
not.

So, I won't claim that your disfunction scenario is impossible or
never observed at the ASF. I will point out that bugzilla could be
used just as effectively to create the same problem.

As a mentor, what I care about is what happens when a new person shows
up. Does the dev list manage to w

Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)

Steve Loughran — 2012-05-25T07:53:19

I'm not convinced that JIRA helps communities. It's great in companies -IDE
integration, you can bounce issues to others, it pings your phone so often
you can use it as a network liveness test. It also lets you persist
discussions in a way that can be searched. In a busy project, it helps you
keep track of your workload, and can assist in sprint planning if you fill
in the est/actual workload fields.

But
 -it encourages people to watch the issues they care about, and ignore the
rest
 -it pushes you towards discussion-on-jira rather than in the mailing list
 -those discussions tend to be focused, rather than generic community
chitchat about dev issues.

When you compare it to the community of the pure-email list groups, or the
"socialness" of github, JIRA seems to me that it pushes you towards
antisocialism, to sit in your office and care only about the 8 JIRAs you
have marked as in progress.

Given the ubiquity and value of JIRA, what can be done here?

Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)

Steve Loughran — 2012-05-25T07:57:51

I first encountered when I subbed to the Maven dist for a while. Very
different from ant-dev, which was pure distributed community and axis-dev,
which had some commercial team engagement (IBM), but in which WSO2 strive
hard to not be exclusionary.



It is becoming a bit of a SPOF, isn't it?

Re: [DISCUSS] Crunch to join the Apache Incubator

Steve Loughran — 2012-05-25T09:39:24


I'd go for pulling Jakob in for tactical and strategic reasons

1. He's using it at work, so represents the end users.
2. His code is always of high quality
3. Given the ongoing discussion on diversity w.r.t Flume, I think it would
be wise to not follow that projects example, and try to get broader
involvement from the outset.

Irrespective of the committer list at entry, you will need that broader
community at exit, so getting them in early is good.

Anyway, your decision, it won't effect my voting -it's just a different
action from that which I'd have taken.


Now, why are my tests failing...
Steve

Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)

Bruce Mitchener — 2012-05-25T15:08:01

I was involved with Flume prior to coming to Apache ... then a baby arrived
and things sort of changed for the last year.  But you're right that I
haven't been around since then ... I still have a couple of source trees
around with various changes in them, but no idea what the status of any of
that is. :/

 - Bruce

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers< at >dslextreme.com>wrote:

Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)

Ralph Goers — 2012-05-25T15:03:14

On May 25, 2012, at 2:46 AM, Arvind Prabhakar wrote:


Are you really going to resort to distortion of the truth to try to claim diversity?  I work with Derek and know that he has never participated in Flume since its inception. I also can't recall Bruce or Aaron participating after the podling started. All of them appear to have just signed the initial wiki page to get on the PPMC. 

I'm not sure why you left Tom White and Patrick Hunt off as they are both mentors and are PPMC members and both have participated in PMC discussions. 

That leaves just me as the only non-Cloudera PPMC member who actively participates and I don't commit code and I've been on the PPMC primarily as a mentor.  If you somehow believe that this constitutes diversity than my job as a mentor has a long way to go.

Ralph

Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)

Arvind Prabhakar — 2012-05-25T09:46:48


Back in October of 2011 the PPMC discussed and decided to use the process
where new committers are not automatically added to PPMC. We have since
followed this process and added one committer to the PPMC recently.

The current PPMC consists of:

* Andrew Bayer (Cloudera)
* Ahmed Radwan (Cloudera)
* Arvind Prabhakar(Cloudera)
* Bruce Mitchener (Independent)
* Derek Deeter (Intuit)
* Eric Sammer (Cloudera)
* Henry Robinson (Cloudera)
* Jonathan Hsieh (Cloudera)
* Aaron Kimball (Odiago)
* Ralph Goers (Intuit)

There is a representation of at least four companies in this list. This,
plus the the fact that we have demonstrated our commitment to the policies
that we set forth, give me the confidence that we are on the right track.
Diversity is a priority and will continue to be post graduation.

Arvind

Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)

Arvind Prabhakar — 2012-05-25T09:19:12

Hi,

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave< at >comcast.net> wrote:


Thanks. These have been removed.




These were kept to facilitate the transitoin over to Flume 0.9.5 which
never happened. We instead went straight to 1.0.0. Other than that all
resources have been migrated.

Thanks,
Arvind Prabhakar

Re: [VOTE] Accept Crunch into the Apache Incubator

Niall Pemberton — 2012-05-24T23:10:06

+1

Niall

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 7:45 PM, Josh Wills <jwills< at >cloudera.com> wrote:

Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)

Arun C Murthy — 2012-05-24T22:21:40


According to that 66% of active committers are from one organization.

My understanding is that the diversity argument is to prevent one organization from causing the project to stall if they lost interest... see #2 in :
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Minimum+Graduation+Requirements
That, potentially, helps to develop ability to tolerate and resolve conflicts (#5) without resorting to corporate structures.

OTOH, graduation might actually help Flume get a more diverse community? Flume does seem to meet all other requirements... 

So, the question is: does the project feel that there is no single company which is vital to the success of the project? If so, Flume seems ready.

Arun

PS: From my own experience: in the early days of Hadoop we were very concerned about not just #companies but also the percentage of representation and this, perversely, led to discrimination against folks from the majority contributor who were, actually, very qualified! *smile* 
And no, I'm not sayi

Re: [VOTE] Accept Crunch into the Apache Incubator

Tom White — 2012-05-24T20:50:33

+1

Tom

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Josh Wills <jwills< at >cloudera.com> wrote:

Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)

Tom White — 2012-05-24T20:43:57

According to Clutch [1] the project has added 8 committers since it
entered incubation. Regarding diversity, committers from over four
organizations are actively involved in Flume development, which is
pretty healthy. There does seem to be a need to have more diversity at
the PPMC level, however, so that's something that could be worked on.

Tom

[1] http://incubator.apache.org/clutch.html

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave< at >comcast.net> wrote:

Re: Invitation to join Apache Kafka as a committer

Joel Koshy — 2012-05-24T17:44:14

Works now.

Thanks,

Joel

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 8:08 PM, Kevan Miller <kevan.miller< at >gmail.com>wrote:

Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)

Dave Fisher — 2012-05-24T19:06:22

On May 24, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:


I started reading some of the Flume website and I think that when you go to the main Wiki page:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLUME/Index

When you click on the "Flume Cookbook" the resource is at cloudera.org.

http://archive.cloudera.com/cdh/3/flume/Cookbook/

This page lists "flume-dev< at >cloudera.org" and is a file with a revision dated May 7, 2012.

You can make you own conclusions, but it looks like podling resources need to be migrated to the ASF.

Regards,
Dave

Re: [VOTE] Accept Crunch into the Apache Incubator

Doug Cutting — 2012-05-24T18:55:59

+1

Doug

On 05/23/2012 11:45 AM, Josh Wills wrote:

Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)

Ralph Goers — 2012-05-24T18:49:24

On May 24, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Arvind Prabhakar wrote:


I was mistaken and the list above is indeed correct.  For some reason I thought a couple of them had become Cloudera employees.  

However, none of those three are currently on the PPMC.  When you look at the PPMC list you should also include a few more Cloudera people who do participate in release votes and PPMC issues. Most, if not all, of the non-Cloudera PMC members don't.




I think you misunderstood my point or I didn't state it very well.  Diversity isn't achieved simply by having bodies.  IOW I am not suggesting offering commit rights to people who haven't earned it just to meet some ratio.  However, I am not suggesting the project has ever even considered doing that.

Ralph