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Take Our Survey on the Impact of Software Bugs

typemock — 2012-04-01T13:21:30

We are looking to survey software developers about the impact software bugs have and what practices are most effective in preventing software bugs.

To fill in the survey: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/JBK3PD9

It will be quick. There are only 6 questions to this survey.

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Re: Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

Greg Young — 2012-03-16T00:49:30

Changerequested ... Changeaccepted. A line being down sounds like a bad reason to not accept changes

Sent from my iPad

On 2012-03-15, at 7:31 AM, "mrpmorris" <mrpmorris-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

mrpmorris — 2012-03-15T11:31:27

If the master changes a piece of critical routing data for a country in such a way that the client cannot process it then changes need to be made to the client first and then the change reattempted.  If the client doesn't veto the change then we end up with different clients using different routes, and one specific client (or more) using invalid routes; which results in things not turning up.





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Re: Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

Derek Greer — 2012-03-14T11:44:16

So, what are the implications of one client failing to update it's data (storing the message in a dead letter queue to be processed later once you figure out what's wrong) while the other clients succeed?


On Mar 14, 2012, at 5:04 AM, "mrpmorris" <mrpmorris-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

mrpmorris — 2012-03-14T10:04:10

I don't have consistent data.  I have a change which is rejected because the way a client is currently configured means its state will be invalidated if the change is permitted.  The client will need to be prepared for the change in advance, or the master change will need to be revised to cater for an outlier.





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RE: Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

Sebastien Lambla — 2012-03-13T09:28:11

Yes. Kill the master DB, have each client system be independent and update their client data based on events they receive through some messaging system or another.

You may have inconsistent data between clients, but as your update is all or nothing, you already have inconsistent data in your current model (you want to update X but A refuses it so X and A are inconsistent until all clients have been updated). You won't lose anything (once the psychological block is overcome) but you will remove the need for a DTC, shared state and tight coupling at the DB level.

________________________________________
From: altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org [altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org] on behalf of mrpmorris [mrpmorris-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org]
Sent: 13 March 2012 09:16
To: altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org
Subject: [altdotnet] Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

There isn't really a concrete example that I can give.  The master database is a sub-set of the client database.  It manages global data which is shared by all clients.  However when any changes are applied at a client level the client model knows about more classes and these changes might fail the additional validation due to the extended model.

I need the update to all clients to be an all-or-nothing approach.  At the moment I use a DTC but was wondering if there is a different way to approach it.

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Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

mrpmorris — 2012-03-13T09:16:14

There isn't really a concrete example that I can give.  The master database is a sub-set of the client database.  It manages global data which is shared by all clients.  However when any changes are applied at a client level the client model knows about more classes and these changes might fail the additional validation due to the extended model.

I need the update to all clients to be an all-or-nothing approach.  At the moment I use a DTC but was wondering if there is a different way to approach it.



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RE: Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

Sebastien Lambla — 2012-03-12T09:12:46

Do you have a concrete example in terms of what the user is trying to achieve?

From what you explain to me, you can't change shared date in case something is using the shared data, so the update fails. At that point, the operation that a user may be trying to achieve (and I have no idea how that relates to templates etc) will succeed because the shared data hasn't been updated.

So you're already in an inconsistent state that probably either has no impact to the business or has another way to recover (it's usually the former). Then you update all your clients and apply the change, which gives you back consistency (although of course, the more clients and templates the more unlikely it is you'll be able to have your system in an absolutely consistent state, defeating the purpose of wanting consistency when in practice the techncialities of your architecture make you even more inconsistent).

In other words, it smells to me that you have a technical problem due to your architecture, you're trying to solve it by more technical constraints, but this doesn't relate to business problems.

Examples of scenarios would be highly welcome. Any answer from me will probably be either in the "you don't need consistency, give up" or the "you don't need to architect because of your volume, DTC yourself to death your architecture doesn't matter much"

Seb
________________________________________
From: altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org [altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org] on behalf of mrpmorris [mrpmorris-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org]
Sent: 12 March 2012 09:01
To: altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org
Subject: [altdotnet] Re: Propagating changes from a master DB


Clients perform regular tasks based on *some* of the template data specified by a master database.  The master can only change template state if the client models all okay the alteration.  If there is a problem then the client DB's use of the template has to first be revised, and then the alteration to the master DB is made again.

The master DB change therefore needs to be made and propagated as a single operation in case another change to the client is made in between asking if it is okay and making the change.




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Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

mrpmorris — 2012-03-12T09:01:05

Clients perform regular tasks based on *some* of the template data specified by a master database.  The master can only change template state if the client models all okay the alteration.  If there is a problem then the client DB's use of the template has to first be revised, and then the alteration to the master DB is made again.

The master DB change therefore needs to be made and propagated as a single operation in case another change to the client is made in between asking if it is okay and making the change.




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RE: Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

Sebastien Lambla — 2012-03-11T10:35:49

You give technical scenarios to why you need consistency. What are the requirements from the business that trigger such requirements?
________________________________________
From: altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org [altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org] on behalf of mrpmorris [mrpmorris-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org]
Sent: 11 March 2012 10:22
To: altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org
Subject: [altdotnet] Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

And how would I get a confirmation from the master + all clients, then change the data all within an atomic operation so that

1: The permission doesn't change between being granted and applying the change
2: All get updated or none

How do you do a 2 phase commit without a distributed transaction?

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Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

mrpmorris — 2012-03-11T10:22:42

And how would I get a confirmation from the master + all clients, then change the data all within an atomic operation so that

1: The permission doesn't change between being granted and applying the change
2: All get updated or none

How do you do a 2 phase commit without a distributed transaction?



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Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

Greg Young — 2012-03-10T07:08:47

Use events to distribute. Just say no to 2pc there...

Sent from my iPad

On 2012-03-09, at 2:00 PM, "mrpmorris" <mrpmorris-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

mrpmorris — 2012-03-10T09:57:11

Country was one example.  There are many complex objects which need propagating, including legal entities etc which are definitely not value types.

For example, someone might want to make a change to something on the master and have it propagated but one of the client databases might object because it would violate one of its rules.

I can't go into too much detail due to commercial sensitivity, but at the moment I am using a distributed transaction and updating all of the client databases via their business model classes - it's working okay but I am wondering if I should be taking a different approach.



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Re: Propagating changes from a master DB

Michael Ibarra — 2012-03-09T19:30:34

Hi,

I don't know all the details of your operation, but it seems to me that
unless you actually need to track your Country object as a distinct entity
in your system, you'd be better off treating it like a Value Object and
storing Country data as a value on the containing class.

What kind of information would you need to change on the Country object?
Can / does that information vary with each association it has with classes
that reference it?

Regardless, spinning up a new DB to hold common data seems like a huge
amount of overhead for the problem at hand.

Can you provide more details?

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 11:00 AM, mrpmorris <mrpmorris-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

Propagating changes from a master DB

mrpmorris — 2012-03-09T19:00:24

Hi all

I have an app which has a physically separate database for each client. Some are on different machines, but all on the same local network.  When a common piece of data such as information on a Country object needs to change I want to change it only once and have all of the clients update automatically.

My idea was to have a master database and have changes propagated to clients' databases, but what would be the best way to propagate them?  In some cases the common data might be deleted, where this is a valid operation to perform in all but the very last client (which might have a foreign key reference) and so the entire operation would need to either fail or succeed as a single operation.

Any suggestions?



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Re: NH3.2 mapping

Tuna Toksoz — 2012-01-18T19:37:16

the other way: EF Fluent mapping is similar to FNH

PS: Similarity is not commutative in this context :P


Tuna Toksöz
Eternal sunshine of the open source mind.



On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Michael Brown <mbrown-BQc/kKRR9a7by3iVrkZq2A< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

RE: NH3.2 mapping

Michael Brown — 2012-01-18T19:35:15

Haven't used ConfORM but did use FluentNH, there's a huge jumpstart in that FNH has a very similar API to the EF fluent mapping.

From: altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org [mailto:altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Vinicius de Melo Rocha
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 3:09 PM
To: ozaltdotnet-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw< at >public.gmane.org; altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org
Subject: [altdotnet] NH3.2 mapping

Do you think that choose ConfORM, instead of FluentNH, to add code mapping to NH was a good choice?

I'm just getting started on using NH and I had a feeling that FluentNH is much more accepted by the community.

--
Vinicius de Melo Rocha
http://diveintocode.com
http://vmelorocha.wordpress.com/
http://twitter.com/vmrocha

NH3.2 mapping

Vinicius de Melo Rocha — 2012-01-14T20:08:34

Do you think that choose ConfORM, instead of FluentNH, to add code mapping
to NH was a good choice?

I'm just getting started on using NH and I had a feeling that FluentNH is
much more accepted by the community.

Re: ASP.NET MVC open source projects

Roy Osherove — 2012-01-04T20:17:28

nerd dinner is NOT a good example of unit tests

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Michael Brown <mbrown-BQc/kKRR9a7by3iVrkZq2A< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

RE: ASP.NET MVC open source projects

Michael Brown — 2012-01-04T20:14:52

NerdDinner was the sample project made by Scott Hanselman, Phil Haack , Scott Guthrie, and Rob Conery for their book<http://www.amazon.com/Professional-ASP-NET-MVC-Wrox-Programmer/dp/0470384611>. It’s been maintained since the book has been written (currently ported to ASP.NET MVC 3).

RE: London Open Event January 21st

Sebastien Lambla — 2012-01-04T18:04:10

 If you want to help with the organization of openspacebeers you're more than welcome to and can contact me privately. Otherwise if you want a more office-oriented environment, i'd suggest contacting the LDNUG and propose this to them.

Seb
________________________________
From: altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org [altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org] on behalf of Adrian Withy [awithy-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org]
Sent: 04 January 2012 10:36
To: altdotnet-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org
Subject: [altdotnet] London Open Event January 21st

Anyone interested in having an open meetup in London (in the City near Cheapside).  My work has a great set of rooms that would lend itself well to an open spaces type event.  January 21st.  #adrianwithy

-Adrian