gmane.network.peer-to-peer.netsukuku

Re: Netsukuku forum and chatroom

Yussi — 2013-05-19T08:26:38

We need to be able to query the state of the ntkd, number of connected
peers, packet routed per sec, topology, logs etc.

under test_suites, there are classes that do similar things. I guess it
might be better to start off with a command line util.

It's normal practice for routers to have a web interface, so you go to
localhost:someport and you get a control panel to the router. It has to
be optional, so that when we're building for small devices (arm) we can
disable it.

It's up to you how and in what language you write it (The web part, for
the command line part better stick with vala), it's usually done in php
or python.

After messing around a little, i wanted to see what files my ntkd is
holding.

$sudo lsof | grep -i ntkd | less

I noticed it's holding port 50080 (might be different for you??)

$nc localhost 50080

gave something that looks like the state of the router (am i right?)
A bit more digging, and the file  /var/tmp/node_status.xml seems to hold
the same, or similar information. I think, to start with, that's what
you want to use.


On 19/05/13 05:56, Valeska Grim wrote:

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Re: Netsukuku forum and chatroom

Yussi — 2013-05-18T13:55:47

There seems to be a running #netsukuku channel on free node. I think if
we just start using it, and saving the chatlogs somewhere that will be a
good start.

Anyone knows who the bots there are?

On 18/05/13 14:49, Valeska Grim wrote:

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Netsukuku forum and chatroom

Valeska Grim — 2013-05-18T13:49:30

I think a netsukuku chatroom and forum would be really good. there used to be a.netsukuku irc, But, ait seems.to be gone. freenode is not good for tor users, It forces then to register in a complicated process and use a different sever. Not only did I fail, But, Sig.ing up and all defeats the purpose of.tor. We need another way. We could try making netsukuku sites at some.point.

________________________________
 From: Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>
To: Valeska Grim <valeska_grim-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>; Netsukuku discussion list <netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org> 
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 5:20:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] Connecting from afar

You know, I am not sure how you know this.
Here's how i would go about looking for clues.

Start 1 vm, start ntkd on it, and in another window still on that vm
start $tcpdump -i eth0 -vvv

watch it for a few minutes to try and establish some traffic pattern
when not connected,

than start the other vm, run ntkd, go back to the first vm and see if
the traffic pattern seem to change, if it does, it probably means there
is some communication going between the nodes.

start looking at the vala code for clues about what it does, and keep us
posted.

Read up about traffic capture, tcpdump/tshark/wireshark which ever, read
the original ntk specifications. basically, you need to experiment and
tell us what you are seeing.

Thanks, this is much appreciated by everyone.

On 18/05/13 11:32, Valeska Grim wrote:
Netsukuku mailing list
Netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku

Re: NewNetsukukuOrg

Valeska Grim — 2013-05-18T13:41:23

alright, Yeah, I'll try doing that with my friend. I think both ways can be done simultaneously, And I might be able to set up a perm, At least, Semi-perm node. It should be fun making that interface!

________________________________
 From: Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>
To: Luca Dionisi <luca.dionisi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> 
Cc: Netsukuku discussion list <netsukuku< at >lists.dyne.org> 
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:28:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] NewNetsukukuOrg

OK, let's start with this:
How do we put the valadoc online?
Who can set up some permanent ntk nodes?
How do we check that two nodes are connected?
How do we set up "hidden services"?
How do we 'ping' using the ntk namespace?
How do we use the ntk namespace within a browser (Ie,
http://gf.gh.gb.g1...)?

I am very busy too, so busy i shouldn't be wasting time doing this, I've
got an exam in 3 days, another in 5 and more to come.

I am going to this event in the UK, in June, there will be a lot of
hackers there who I am sure I can pitch this to, if I have something to
pitch.

I do really want to help, I have however been gifted with the attributes
of being extremely unreliable and messy, so it can't be me who puts
order into the chaos.

Valeska, what I think can really help, is a web based control panel for
ntk, I think you can do it, and learn tons of new things. I don't think
PR or money will harm us, but i don't think that's what's holding us
back either. basically, we want to attract the sort of people who will
look past the PR and into the code/docs. We want the people who hang
around on darknet forums, security researchers, network engineers and
mathematicians, conman and criminally minded hackers who will test us at
every corner, we want the NSA to be unable to take us down in the long
run. Fund raising efforts and PR are no substitute for coding and testing.

But, if you feel like this is how you can contribute most, don't let it
stop you.

On 18/05/13 13:46, Luca Dionisi wrote:

_______________________________________________
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Netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org
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Re: NewNetsukukuOrg

Yussi — 2013-05-18T13:28:04

OK, let's start with this:
How do we put the valadoc online?
Who can set up some permanent ntk nodes?
How do we check that two nodes are connected?
How do we set up "hidden services"?
How do we 'ping' using the ntk namespace?
How do we use the ntk namespace within a browser (Ie,
http://gf.gh.gb.g1...)?


I am very busy too, so busy i shouldn't be wasting time doing this, I've
got an exam in 3 days, another in 5 and more to come.

I am going to this event in the UK, in June, there will be a lot of
hackers there who I am sure I can pitch this to, if I have something to
pitch.

I do really want to help, I have however been gifted with the attributes
of being extremely unreliable and messy, so it can't be me who puts
order into the chaos.

Valeska, what I think can really help, is a web based control panel for
ntk, I think you can do it, and learn tons of new things. I don't think
PR or money will harm us, but i don't think that's what's holding us
back either. basically, we want to attract the sort of people who will
look past the PR and into the code/docs. We want the people who hang
around on darknet forums, security researchers, network engineers and
mathematicians, conman and criminally minded hackers who will test us at
every corner, we want the NSA to be unable to take us down in the long
run. Fund raising efforts and PR are no substitute for coding and testing.

But, if you feel like this is how you can contribute most, don't let it
stop you.


On 18/05/13 13:46, Luca Dionisi wrote:

_______________________________________________
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Re: NewNetsukukuOrg

Valeska Grim — 2013-05-18T12:56:13

yes! I think more than anything, We need a donation page, We need to get some money so we can pay for ads. We should start up youtube channels, We should make gif ads people can make their signatures on forums. We should over haul the website, We should just do our best to make netsukuku as presentable as possible. We know making it completely fully featured and ported and bug fixed will take a LONG time. So, In the mean time, We need to make it look as nice as possible. Then, We can bring more popularity, Maybe, More donations, And even a couple devs willing to help out. That will help a lot I think! I'm willing to help!

________________________________
 From: Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>
To: Netsukuku discussion list <netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org> 
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 5:35:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] NewNetsukukuOrg

OK, then i was wrong, even better,
It's not what you said, it's how the last exchange was made. It read
some subsurface tensions, if there aren't any, great!

So than, how do you see this project going? what's your vision for it?
what help do you need, what things you'd like to designate, and more
importantly, how do we set up the ground work for other people to join?

On 18/05/13 13:30, Luca Dionisi wrote:

_______________________________________________
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Netsukuku< at >lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku_______________________________________________
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Netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku

Re: NewNetsukukuOrg

Luca Dionisi — 2013-05-18T12:46:43

As I said, now I am very busy and I cannot help you much. It's not that I
don't want to help, or that I don't care. I really hope that you can help.
Anyway, I think that if you really want to accomplish this (and so it
seems) you can find your way, and learn more than you could learn if I
tried to explain everything.
In my intention I will be back soon.

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

_______________________________________________
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Re: NewNetsukukuOrg

Yussi — 2013-05-18T12:35:33

OK, then i was wrong, even better,
It's not what you said, it's how the last exchange was made. It read
some subsurface tensions, if there aren't any, great!

So than, how do you see this project going? what's your vision for it?
what help do you need, what things you'd like to designate, and more
importantly, how do we set up the ground work for other people to join?

On 18/05/13 13:30, Luca Dionisi wrote:

_______________________________________________
Netsukuku mailing list
Netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku

Re: NewNetsukukuOrg

Luca Dionisi — 2013-05-18T12:30:03

Hi Yussi.
What fight are you talking about? I think you are misunderstading, or maybe
the fault is my bad english.
I was not criticizing Jaromil, nor Alpt nor anybody.
Also, I am not burned out. When did I say that? Or what did make you think
so?

Jaromil, did I offend you with this email? Yussi is making me doubt about
my way of expressing!  :D
--Luca


On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

_______________________________________________
Netsukuku mailing list
Netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku

Re: Connecting from afar

Yussi — 2013-05-18T12:20:51

You know, I am not sure how you know this.
Here's how i would go about looking for clues.

Start 1 vm, start ntkd on it, and in another window still on that vm
start $tcpdump -i eth0 -vvv

watch it for a few minutes to try and establish some traffic pattern
when not connected,

than start the other vm, run ntkd, go back to the first vm and see if
the traffic pattern seem to change, if it does, it probably means there
is some communication going between the nodes.

start looking at the vala code for clues about what it does, and keep us
posted.

Read up about traffic capture, tcpdump/tshark/wireshark which ever, read
the original ntk specifications. basically, you need to experiment and
tell us what you are seeing.

Thanks, this is much appreciated by everyone.

On 18/05/13 11:32, Valeska Grim wrote:

_______________________________________________
Netsukuku mailing list
Netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku

Re: NewNetsukukuOrg

Yussi — 2013-05-18T12:05:32

Ohh everyone is back here.

Ok guys, chill, I get there's some old tensions on this project, most of
it is before "my time", so I don't know the details exactly. If you need
to fight shit off, just have a massive fight now and get it over with,
don't walk around in circles.

There had been many many attempts since I got here by random people to
put ntk docs on many different platforms, do you remember the social
network one? :).

It doesn't really matter which platform you choose, as long as we can
collate all of the random pieces of information scattered across the web
into one place, and we make it easy for new developers/testers to jump
right in, which at the moment is what keeps this project stalled. I
think a wiki is a good place to start (though the dyne wiki server is
terrible, we can live with it for now).

About the mathematical model, I don't know what the problems are with
it, can someone elaborate? This is the internet goddamnit, and it's
2013, if we need to prove/disprove a theorem we can ask for help from
actual mathematicians, we don't need to second guess.

If the protocol specifications is mathematically unsound, we can change
it, just call the current specs v0.01. I think in the past several years
only Luca has contributed code, and a lot of it. Now one is trying to
deduct from the contributions you've made, I get it, to all intents and
purposes it's your baby.

But this is not a 1 man job, this is a massive undertaking that requires
the skills and efforts of many extremely talented people, it might be
good enough for you to set up a network with your neighbour, it's not
enough to set up the foundations for the day the internet goes down.

The code itself is good, it's clean, it's readable, you can make heads
and tails from it, but it has been very hard for me to get working with
it, because i don't know what it does, because vala is some obscure
language which wasn't exactly in my top 10 to master languages before
ntk, because there is no document which breaks down the code, and there
are no instructions on how to debug or test it.

It's missing those critical comments at the top of every class which
says what this actually does, it has comments on why certain logical
steps are taken inside functions, but not what the function does (which
i admit it's usually easy to figure out from the name), not how it fits
into the rest, no overview.

Put yourself in a position of someone who looks at the code for the
first time, someone with different coding style to yours, and who only
vaguely knows what the thing does. It's not easy contributing.

For some reason, this list have attracted a lot of newbies, this isn't a
bad thing, as long as they are willing to get their hands dirty, at the
end of the day we want someday to make it so that the average cat in
r/awww can set up a node on his ipad.

The world has changed since ntk was conceived, there are now many mesh
and darknet platforms preforming different tasks for different terrains,
most of what you needed ntk for you can already do with a combination of
other solutions. But there is still room for it in the eco system.

The future is no longer the internet, the future is a messy coexistence
of different networks and protocols which is virtually unstandardised,
and ntk can fit right in there with bridging those. There are a lot of
people working on mesh tech now days, a lot of research is being put
into this, i recommend going into gnunet's related projects, there are
some real gems there. There are a lot of people who will help us out,
because we're not in competition with other nets, we can learn from them
things you couldn't have possibly known some 10 years ago.

It's basically all over the place, and in one unreachable place at the
moment, we need at least a few people to have some running servers
connected permanently, so that when someone installs a new node he can
network with them, we need some sample services/igses. we need to put
the vala generated api docs online, we need to put the protocol
specifications into the wiki, we need to brutalize and scrutinize those
specs for problems, we need to make a list of what is implemented
already and what isn't, we need people to scrutinize and brutalize the
code, and the traffic it generates,we need a bug tracking system, we
need to do a ton of things if we want to kick some life back into this.

and we cannot expect Luca to do it, there's no wonder he's burned out,
we cannot expect me to do it either, there is too much to do, the
foundations for collaboration isn't solid yet.

For the wiki, I recommend taking a note or two from the awesome wm wiki,
they got contribution working very fluidly there.

we can put a call out for help in reddit.com/r/darknetplan, but we have
to drop the egos and let bygones be bygones before we can expect anyone
to join.

I hope i'm not pissing anyone off here, but fuck it, i don't mind
pissing people off, feel free to slug me off and call me a hypocrite, i
get the sense that we need to have a proper massive fight before we can
move on.

On 18/05/13 09:21, Luca Dionisi wrote:

_______________________________________________
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Re: Connecting from afar

Valeska Grim — 2013-05-18T10:32:15

Okay, What about all the stuff I sent earlier? The logs and files? Was i connected? How do I know if i am?




________________________________
 From: Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>
To: netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org 
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 3:24:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] Connecting from afar
 

That's right, you want to set up a vpn.

On 18/05/13 08:19, Valeska Grim wrote:

_______________________________________________
Netsukuku mailing list
Netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku_______________________________________________
Netsukuku mailing list
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https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku

Re: Connecting from afar

Yussi — 2013-05-18T10:24:34

That's right, you want to set up a vpn.

On 18/05/13 08:19, Valeska Grim wrote:

_______________________________________________
Netsukuku mailing list
Netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org
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Re: NewNetsukukuOrg

Luca Dionisi — 2013-05-18T08:21:43

Jaromil,
I remember when you set up a wordpress installation. Then nobody went on
shaping it. Maybe it was my fault, because I never gave the necessary input
for what we should put on the site. During this time I made some (very
little, tiny) experience on using wordpress, maybe I could try to set it up
again.

I understand that very few people have the knowledge and familiarity with
mathematics that Alpt mastered. Anyhow, it seems to me that what Alpt
already produced in terms of theoretical analysis and algorithm is enough
to create a working prototype of the netsukuku network. In particular not
all of the "features" prospected on the dissertation "scalable mesh
networks and the address space balancing problem" dated 2010 are yet
implemented in the software.
This was to say that in my opinion, the netsukuku project could very well
focus on the production of the network as it was designed years ago,
although we do not have at the moment a person with an in-depth mastering
of the mathematical models behind it.
I believe that the features of such a network (no ISP needed, no central
authority, self-forming, self-healing, highly scalable, fully routable,
mesh network, based on current TCP/IP) are still worth, because other
projects that you mention are pursuing different goals.

If this is what we still are aiming to do, then we can go on discussing on
what to write on the website. What do you think?

--Luca

On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 9:33 PM, Jaromil <jaromil-/YyWnpLq9OY< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

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Connecting from afar

Valeska Grim — 2013-05-18T07:19:30

Hi! How does one connect two netsukuku nodes without a direct connection? Such as, Through the internet? I saw this on the story of netsukuku deployment blog http://www.tinc-vpn.org/_______________________________________________
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Fw: iOS build

Valeska Grim — 2013-05-18T06:16:42



----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Valeska Grim <valeska_grim-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>
To: Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 1:13:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] iOS build
 


Hey um, I don't think you need the configure command, I never used it, And it didn't work when I did.




________________________________
 From: Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>
To: Valeska Grim <valeska_grim-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>; Netsukuku discussion list <netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org> 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 12:56:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] iOS build
 

If you resolved all the dependencies, I think it should be the same

$autogen.sh
$configure
$make
$sudo make install

But I know next to nothing about macs.

On 17/05/13 08:53, Valeska Grim wrote:
*From:* Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>
 Valeska Grim wrote:
Netsukuku mailing list
Netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku

Fw: iOS build

Valeska Grim — 2013-05-18T06:16:25



----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Valeska Grim <valeska_grim< at >yahoo.com>
To: Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 5:17:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] iOS build
 


 How do I know for sure they are communicating? I just did the same thing with my HP and Desktop, And seem to have gotten a similar result.


________________________________
 From: Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>
To: Valeska Grim <valeska_grim-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>; Netsukuku discussion list <netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpxNg+MwTxZMZA< at >public.gmane.org.org> 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 3:19:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] iOS build
 

nice :), can you post a clip of the beginning of the output of ntkd -v 4?

On 17/05/13 11:17, Valeska Grim wrote:
 <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org <mailto:uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>>
 10.0.0.0/8
 _______________________________________________
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Re: iOS build

Valeska Grim — 2013-05-18T06:16:00

How do we know when we connect to another node?



________________________________
 From: Yussi <uc.dev.null-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>
To: Valeska Grim <valeska_grim-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>; Netsukuku discussion list <netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org> 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 3:19:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] iOS build
 

nice :), can you post a clip of the beginning of the output of ntkd -v 4?

On 17/05/13 11:17, Valeska Grim wrote:
Netsukuku mailing list
Netsukuku-pma9X3FYtpzZ+VzJOa5vwg< at >public.gmane.org
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Re: NewNetsukukuOrg

Jaromil — 2013-05-17T18:33:52

dear Luca,

On Fri, 17 May 2013, Luca Dionisi wrote:


Alpt in person. We didn't heard from him since quite a while, then he
asked access to the website to update it with those news.

I must admit I have criticized his act alread, because it somehow
ignores all the history of netsukuku in recent years, including your
development and that of others.


I'm not directly involved, if not as a groupie and tester of the first C
implementation, which was also included in dyne:bolic 1. 13 years ago!
Other than that, I had theoretical excanges on the project since its
early days with some of its members, but that's nothing that entitles
me to making plans, nor I have the necessary knowledge and comprehension
of the mathematical models behind NTK.

But well, Dyne.org is a non-profit foundation which, among other things,
cooperates to the creation of the Museo dell'Informatica Funzionante and
above all cares for preservation of IT history. As such, I've acted upon
the disappearance of the netsuku website back some years ago to keep it
online, a task on which Crash also helped, an early visionary and
developer of netsukuku. Following that, as you might recall, I have
offered to setup a new website if someone wanted to curate it, a task on
which we didn't follow up collectively. But at least I believe nothing
is lost..

As of now, the thing I feel like volunteering is to update the online
documentation with the current status of Netsukuku: include its history
until now and all related projects, like your Vala implementation for
instance.

I think also the recent thread on similar mesh project is of interest
here and we should have a page dedicated to that whose content we can
collectively compile here, since this list already gather many
interested experts. That can be on the wiki I guess.

What do you think?

ciao

Re: NewNetsukukuOrg

carlo veneziano — 2013-05-17T15:34:55

Netsukuku and similar mesh protocols exclude p2b connections by cable?
If so, what is the reason?

carlo


2013/5/17 Luca Dionisi <luca.dionisi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>

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Re: NewNetsukukuOrg

Luca Dionisi — 2013-05-17T14:47:47

Hi Jaromil
I was wondering who the author of the update was.
Would you please elaborate what your plans are about the netsukuku project?
--Luca

On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Jaromil <jaromil-/YyWnpLq9OY< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

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