gmane.linux.ubuntu.sounder

Shutting down the sounder mailing list

Daniel Holbach — 2011-04-20T09:25:09

We have regularly been made aware of recurring problems on this list.
The tone and atmosphere are unmatched in other Ubuntu mailing lists. At
one point, Mark reached out [1] to remind everyone how we want to
communicate with each other. Still debates kept getting out of hand and
were mostly wildly unrelated to Ubuntu. Alan reached out again [2] and
made clear that the list had long moved away from its initial focus and
welcoming atmosphere. No solutions for the problem were brought up in
the list discussion or in the Community Council meeting.

In the meeting on April 19th the CC decided to shut down the Sounder
mailing list. In essence, this is a decision to prune areas of the
project which are offtopic or ungoverned, on the basis that they
distract from our shared community focus on the goal of delivering free
software in the best possible state, on particular terms (free of
charge, cadence). While we appreciate that the Sounder list (and
possibly other, similar forums) provide a particular social release for
those who use them, we think there are better forums for each of the
varied topics discussed there. Some of those are inside the project,
most are elsewhere.

[1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2009-December/013663.html
[2] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016351.html

Thanks for all the fun moments on the list, see you elsewhere,
 your Community Council

Looks like it's closing time. Lets move the party.

John McCabe-Dansted — 2011-04-20T08:54:58

Given that sounder is closing, those of us who still think this
sub-community is worth preserving could move to
   http://groups.google.com/group/bikeshed

Any objections?

I have put up a draft description:

"This group is for informal discussion between people who identify as
members of the Ubuntu community. This group is not affiliated with the
Ubuntu project, does not represent the official view of anyone, and
probably isn't representative either of users or developers. Try not
to feed flame-wars."

I don't claim that is the best possible description of the group. Nor
do I claim to know whether the group needs moderation, or needs to be
more inclusive etc. Such issues could perhaps be decided by discussion
between people who care enough to show up at the new mailing list.

Re: An open letter to Alan Pope

Amedee Van Gasse — 2011-04-20T08:32:27


I will try to attend the meeting on 3 may. I have aready logged into the
ubuntu-meeting channel with irssi, and I will remain on the channel,
lurking, thanks to a screen session that keeps running.

This is what I'm currently seeing:




10:27 -!- amedee [~amedee< at >intrepid.warp.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:27 -!- Topic for #ubuntu-meeting: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds |
Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
10:27 -!- Topic set by cody-somerville
[~cody-some< at >ubuntu/member/somerville32] [Mon Jan  3 20:23:23 2011]
10:27 [Users #ubuntu-meeting]
10:27 [ adam_g       ] [ cjohnston      ] [ highvoltage ] [ komputes   ] [
ogasawara  ] [ Sp4rKy      ]
10:27 [ Adri2000     ] [ cjwatson       ] [ hyperair    ] [ lamont     ] [
ogra_      ] [ starcraftman]
10:27 [ agateau      ] [ cnd            ] [ ianmcorvidae] [ Laney      ] [
oubiwann   ] [ stgraber    ]
10:27 [ ailo         ] [ cody-somerville] [ IdleOne     ] [ lifeless   ] [
Pendulum   ] [ SWAT        ]
10:27 [ ajmitch      ] [ court_jester   ] [ ikepanhc    ] [ lionel     ] [
pgraner    ] [ Technoviking]
10:27 [ akgraner     ] [ Craig_Dem      ] [ ikonia      ] [ lool       ] [
Pici       ] [ Tm_T        ]
10:27 [ AlanBell     ] [ czajkowski     ] [ inetpro     ] [ maco       ] [
plars      ] [ Tonio_      ]
10:27 [ allee        ] [ dagar          ] [ itnet7      ] [ maxb       ] [
pleia2     ] [ ToyKeeper   ]
10:27 [ allison_     ] [ dantalizing    ] [ ivoks       ] [ mc44       ] [
popey      ] [ TREllis     ]
10:27 [ Amaranth     ] [ DarkwingDuck   ] [ james_w     ] [ mdeslaur   ] [
ppisati    ] [ tsimpson    ]
10:27 [ amedee       ] [ davidcalle     ] [ JamieBen1ett] [ mdz        ] [
raphink    ] [ tumbleweed  ]
10:27 [ Ampelbein    ] [ Daviey         ] [ JanC        ] [ merriam_   ] [
rgreening  ] [ txwikinger  ]
10:27 [ Andre_Gondim ] [ DBO            ] [ jcastro     ] [ Mez        ] [
Riddell    ] [ ubottu      ]
10:27 [ AndrewMC     ] [ debfx          ] [ jdstrand    ] [ mhall119   ] [
robbiew_   ] [ ubuntulo1   ]
10:27 [ apachelogger ] [ Destine        ] [ jelmer      ] [ MichealH   ] [
rsalveti   ] [ UndiFineD   ]
10:27 [ apw          ] [ dholbach       ] [ JFo         ] [ mlegris1   ] [
Sarvatt    ] [ Ursinha     ]
10:27 [ ArneGoetje   ] [ DJones         ] [ jhunt       ] [ MootBot    ] [
Sarvatt_   ] [ valorie     ]
10:27 [ arun         ] [ doko_          ] [ jibel       ] [ mvo        ] [
sbc        ] [ vish        ]
10:27 [ avelldiroll  ] [ drubin         ] [ jibel_      ] [ Nafallo    ] [
sbeattie   ] [ wallyworld_ ]
10:27 [ ayan         ] [ duanedesign    ] [ jiboumans   ] [ Nakkel     ] [
ScottK     ] [ wendar      ]
10:27 [ azeem        ] [ elky           ] [ jjohansen   ] [ NCommander ] [
Seeker`    ] [ wet         ]
10:27 [ bazhang      ] [ em             ] [ Joeb454     ] [ nealmcb    ] [
shadeslayer] [ wg          ]
10:27 [ bdmurray     ] [ evilnhandler   ] [ johnc4510   ] [ neversfelde] [
shani      ] [ YoBoY       ]
10:27 [ bdrung_      ] [ fader_         ] [ jpds        ] [ Ng         ] [
shirgall   ] [ yofel_      ]
10:27 [ bladernr_    ] [ felipe_        ] [ juliux      ] [ nhandler   ] [
skaet      ] [ Zic         ]
10:27 [ Bolle1961    ] [ freeflying     ] [ jussi       ] [ Nicke__    ] [
skfin      ] [ zul         ]
10:27 [ broder       ] [ GatoLoko^      ] [ kees        ] [ niekie     ] [
sladen     ]
10:27 [ cdbs         ] [ ghostcube      ] [ kenvandine  ] [ nigelb     ] [
slangasek  ]
10:27 [ Chipaca      ] [ head_victim    ] [ kirkland    ] [ niko       ] [
smoser     ]
10:27 [ chrisccoulson] [ hggdh          ] [ Knightlust  ] [ nixternal  ] [
soren      ]
10:27 -!- Irssi: #ubuntu-meeting: Total of 176 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0
voices, 176 normal]
10:27 -!- Channel #ubuntu-meeting created Sun Nov 26 07:42:48 2006
10:27 -!- Irssi: Join to #ubuntu-meeting was synced in 0 secs
10:28 -!- victorp [~victorp< at >91.189.88.12] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:28 -!- ivanka [~ivanka< at >91.189.88.12] has joined #ubuntu-meeting

 [10:30] [amedee(+i)] [4:ubuntu/#ubuntu-meeting(+Ccz)] [Act: 1,3]
[#ubuntu-meeting]

Re: Baseless presumptions - An open letter to Alan Pope

Basil Chupin — 2011-04-20T07:34:25

Vooops! Missed this one until now.

My feeling is is that the majority of people here - and most probably 
elsewhere if they were aware of it - are disillusioned with the 
performance of this CoC and the idea of having all the members replaced 
is appropriate.

However, there are 2 points about this.

Firstly, the current membership of the CC expires this coming July so 
it's only a matter of waiting a few months before they get replaced anyway.

Secondly, what exactly is the *relevance* of this "CC"?

A lame attempt at getting people to believe in this magical, Harry 
Potter-type world, of "*community* *involvement*" and all that....? (at 
least until the time that the "community" disagrees in any way?)

I stop here.

BC

Dead community walking

Chris Puttick — 2011-04-20T07:24:13

Dear Community Council

Dissent, disagreement and debate are not bad. Inclusion does mean
inclusion. Monocultures are inherently flawed. Consider some
introspection.

You are the Community Council. Good for you. Sounder members are part
of the Ubuntu community. That is, or should be, far more important. As
a result what your decision to close the list says, louder and more
clearly than anything else is this:

"we, The Community Council, get to decide who should and should not be
members of the community. We, The Community Council, don't like the
Sounder list, nor do we approve of the attitudes of many of the
members who frequent it. We, The Community Council, think inclusion
means to include those we approve of and exclude everyone else. We,
the Community Council, want everyone who is not like us or does not
hold our narrow political views to be eliminated from the community
forthwith"

But inclusion is about tolerance; not your weird narrow view of
tolerance, but actual tolerance. Inclusion is not about including some
identified groups while excluding others, grouped or otherwise. In
fact identifying groups is inherently anti-inclusion: those people
(who are not like us, this group) need to be specifically included
(now we have identified them as a specific group who are different and
need special treatment).

"It’s important to remember that a community where people feel
uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one" Ubuntu CoC

Absolutely, well said. It's equally important to remember that
eliminating dissent and difference is the beginning of the end, the
descent towards monoculture; communities rarely survive becoming
monocultural because evolution tends to difference, and because
monocultures are prone to succumbing to fatal diseases; i.e. the
Ubuntu community is going in the wrong direction. Sounder members,
especially the most opinionated ones, are needed in the Ubuntu
community for that community to be healthy and strong. They also
should be entitled to be covered by the CoC i.e. need to not be made
to "feel uncomfortable or threatened" by the rest of  the community's
actions.

I sincerely hope that the Community Council reconsiders its decision.
Sounder might be a a bit strange at times, and we who are on the list
might be representative of some of the stranger parts of the Ubuntu
community; but nonetheless Sounder serves a valuable purpose in the
Ubuntu community. Sounder is a celebration of diversity,  a place
where all, utterly regardless of their age, religion, gender, race,
height, physical state or political views, are welcomed; a place of
true inclusion. To close it has no positive outcomes for the Ubuntu
community, only negative ones.

Chris

CC'd to my blog.

---
< at >putt1ck
putt1ck.blogspot.com
skype:putt1ck

Opinions in this email are my own and may not reflect that of my
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Documents attached to this email may be in ISO 26300 format:
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Re: Baseless presumptions - An open letter to Alan Pope

Samuel Thurston — 2011-04-20T07:16:32

I have already reposted the mail where pope confirmed that moving the
timeslot would put it at may 3.  I have not reposted the link where he
said he would move the time to 2100, but he did in fact say he was
going to do it.


My statements are well founded, documented and have a basis in
reality.  You seem to disagree but only on the assumption that I
should not have taken pope on his word.


He didn't suggest carrying the item over, he suggested it be discussed
at BOTH times rather than the time he said he intended to move it to.
Which, as we have been told (repeatedly), the CC can't be bothered to
do.


I was misled about the time of the meeting.  Had I known that this
would be the one and only discussion time I would have absolutely been
there.... I've already invested an unreasonable amount of time in
researching the character of the list's content and getting a feel for
how it should be handled, not to show up.

Now you can say "oh you can look at the wiki" and I can say to you, if
someone tells me something that is not true, and I fail to go and look
it up elsewhere to confirm, does that mean the person did not mislead
me in the first place?

Perhaps you think I should believe that two incorrect statements of
date were "accidentally" posted to the list, by the person motioning
for its shutting at the CC?

And maybe I'm just being paranoid that the outline I specifically
asked Pope to present was not presented, but that one of my statements
was twisted to seem in support of closing the list?

Re: [ADMIN] [ANNOUNCE] This list - CC date correction

Samuel Thurston — 2011-04-20T06:48:14

I don't understand if you are following the discussion: Al stated he
would change the meeting time to 2100 UTC and confirmed this would
push the discussion to May 3.  This was the SECOND time he gave an
incorrect time and date for the meeting, and the second one cannot
possibly be written off as a "mistake"

How am I supposed to show up for a discussion when a member of the CC
tells me it isn't happening when it's happening?

Re: An open letter to Alan Pope

Samuel Thurston — 2011-04-20T06:25:10

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Mike Basinger
<mike.basinger< at >ubuntu.com> wrote:

Pope posted the item on the agenda. Pope assured those of us who
questioned him on it that he would be a fair and objective presenter.
He also stated that he would be moving the item to 2100 UTC on May
3rd.

I don't begrudge Alan for the votes cast by other CC members.  I
begrudge him for failing to deliver on promises he made to the list.


I'm not asking for multiple hearings.  I was told the item would be
moved to May 3rd and that is what I set on my calendar.


This is part of my difficulty right now... should I be upset with Alan
for claiming he would convey this information?  Or with the other CC
members voting to close the list for not bothering to follow the links
he painstakingly embedded in his proposal to see if they actually said
what he thought they were saying?

the start of a HUGE thread where discussion of the condition of the
list takes place:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016351.html

In which I post an exhaustive study of a month's worth of list traffic
and conclude that it is *mostly* civil, topical and worthwhile.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016375.html

In which I lay out a clear and concise argument against closure of the
list, and alternative proposals should they be deemed necessary.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016382.html

In that thread, a large number of people who are readers more
frequently than posters, came out to voice their support of the list.

And a separate thread
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016396.html
where 10 or so of the 30-odd regular posters to the list express what
they value about the list... nothing that can't be maintained beyond
moderation.

So.... Where exactly is your disappointment at the lists' responses?
A lot of these linked posts are my own... but look at the thread view
in the archives.  Dozens of people chiming in and offering exactly the
sort of examination and proposal that you're claiming we didn't do.
The reason that you don't know about it is that

1) Alan told us he would present this information to the CC
2) Alan told us the incorrect date for the CC meeting not once but twice.

Re: Bug #689893: CoC tweaks (was: Appropriate behaviour)

Cybe R. Wizard — 2011-04-20T06:03:30

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 06:45:31 +0100 (BST)
Paul Sladen <ubuntu< at >paul.sladen.org> wrote:


Unfortunately too little interest too late as I am soon to be a happy
Debian user once again and have no more that a vague passing interest in
the CofC.

Cybe R. Wizard

Re: Baseless presumptions - An open letter to Alan Pope

Basil Chupin — 2011-04-20T06:01:15

*QUOTE*

On 11 April 2011 22:26, Samuel Thurston<sam.thurston< at >gmail.com>  wrote:

That's right. Yes.

There's been a lot of feedback since the original proposal, and I'm
happy to collate that and present it objectively at either meeting.
It's often difficult to get the entire CC to meetings, so sometimes
there's not enough to make a decision there and then. But it's worth
discussing. It's not a foregone conclusion as some have suggested, and
the fact that I raised it and I'm on the CC doesn't really make any
difference, if anyone had added it to the agenda it would have been
considered the same way.

Cheers,
Al.


*UNQUOTE*


And now we go into the "let's play the pedantics-semantics game"..........



However, I really feel for Alan - what he states is not valued and is 
ignored by the other members of the CoC.

Not only is this a slap-in-the face and therefore hurtful to Alan but it 
also indicates the insensitivity of those who are on the CoC and how 
they "operate" (for want of a less offensive word).

Not nice, not nice at all.*
*

BC

Re: CC Preferred meeting times (was: This list)

Samuel Thurston — 2011-04-20T05:57:15


As far as you can tell being the objective acronym.  Alan:

1) stated that he would change the item to 2100 UTC to accommodate
more users' schedules
2) confirmed that this change would move the item to May 3.

Which part of that do you think is NOT deceitful?

Re: Bug #689893: CoC tweaks (was: Appropriate behaviour)

Paul Sladen — 2011-04-20T05:45:31

For the benefit of others; the bug report is:

  "Doubt about the CoC" - filed on 2010-12-13
  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-codeofconduct/+bug/689893

I believe a click on the link will list 'Paul Sladen' as being a
subscriber (top-right hand side).  I subscribed at 2011-04-18 18:27:

  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-codeofconduct/+bug/689893/+activity

which is less than 3 hours after the email was sent.  There have been
no comments since that email/my subscription:

  2011-04-18 15:33
  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016496.html

and no context (in the body or email title) was available in the
email, other than a link to bug #689893 itself.

It is currently eight days until the Ubuntu 11.04 release, so my
intention was to look at bug #689893 with others at the Ubuntu
Developer Summit in Budapest (in a fortnight) and then try and split
the large diff up into the separate proposals contained within it:

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule

My first step at that stage (to aid with my own understanding) would
probably be to produce some prettier hand-optimised HTML wdiffs;
hopefully looking much like I did for comparing the Open Font License
with the Ubuntu Font Licence:

  http://font.ubuntu.com/ufl/ofl-1.1-ufl-1.0.diff.html

Do you feel strongly that bug #689893 would benefit from more work in
advance of the Ubuntu 11.04 release?  If so, could you describe some
of the context and background in more detail, and also possibly narrow
down exactly /what/ you'd like to see done before/at UDS.

(Since bug #689893 is *not* a release-Critical bug I am minded to
think that bug #689893 should be give the benefit of greater time and
space for consideration---at UDS).

Please let me know if I've missed anything out, or a part could do
with greater clarification.

-Paul

Re: Dead List Walking

Basil Chupin — 2011-04-20T05:27:11

Reminds me of the story told (now abbreviated) when I was reading 
Psychology in my first year at University.

A patient was being shown inkblots by a psychiatrist and was asked what 
he (the patient) saw. As each inkblot was shown, the patient replied 
that it was someone performing some sexual act with another person. At 
the end of the test the psychiatrist told the patient that he definitely 
had a psychotic condition of an abnormal sexual nature. "Look who's 
talking!", replied the patient, "And who's been showing me all these 
pornographic pictures then, eh?!".

BC

Re: Dead List Walking

Fred A. Miller — 2011-04-20T05:13:48

That is an option that some will take, but for now anyway, I'll stay
with Ubuntu and continue to assist as I can.

Fred

Re: The OOo, LibreOffice Tale Should Be a Warning To Canonical, OtherFOSS Projects

Basil Chupin — 2011-04-20T05:10:10

Which is the way I'll be heading, in the final analysis.

I have already expressed my thoughts in private messages: KDE is there 
for the long haul and at least will not suddenly change within 6 months 
into some DE which is unproductive.

I am getting too old to waste my time fooling around with something 
which some kids in short pants came up while smoking some "magical 
substances" behind the toilet block; I now want stability and 
reliability and not uncertainty and insecurity.

So, yes, I am now certain that I will be going back to where I started 
from: KDE - and openSUSE (which, BTW, has an offtopic mail list where it 
is possible to discuss anything, provided that it is within reason and 
not foul-mouthed abusive crud, and it is moderated but the mail list 
itself is NOT archived nor accessed by google-doogle).

BC

Re: Baseless presumptions - An open letter to Alan Pope

Paul Sladen — 2011-04-20T04:49:52

Please do vote new CC members in!  The current election term
is for two years;  which expires on 2011-10-07:

  https://launchpad.net/~communitycouncil/+members

-Paul

Re: CC Preferred meeting times (was: This list)

Paul Sladen — 2011-04-20T04:46:14

Alan Pope said:

  "if the item is indeed bumped to 21:00 UTC"

Did yourself or anyone else bump it "to [a] 21:00 UTC" slot?


The item was added to the Community Council Agenda on 2011-04-07 20:56:

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda?action=diff&rev2=1452&rev1=1451

and announced to everyone on Sounder on 2011-04-08 09:17:

  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016351.html

the first sixteen words of the annoncement email are:

  "I have added an [sic] proposal to the Ubuntu Community Council
   agenda to shut the sounder list down."

and stating a time and place in the same email:

  "The next CC meeting is due to be on the 17th April 2011 at 11:00
   UTC and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on freenode IRC."

Of course there was a typo in there, so 2011-04-08 23:37:

  "You know what, that's wrong. It should say 19th April."
  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016388.html

Which is still over 10 days notice.


Anyone is free to raise the topic with the Ubuntu Community Council:

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda  (click [Edit])


Thanks to the public archives linked above, most people already do.


I am not a member of the Community Council:

  "2009 Community Council vote complete"
  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-October/000627.html

Membership is on a two-year basis.  Vote early, vote often!

-Paul

Re: CC Preferred meeting times (was: This list)

chris — 2011-04-20T04:22:14

+2
CT

Re: Sauna - (was: This list)

Paul Sladen — 2011-04-20T04:20:49

It's a bit like Sauna.  It's lovely, warm, relaxed and self-cleansing.

Until people who don't know the rules wander in;  at that point either
peer-pressure quickly deals with the situation (people learn fast
or politely get asked to leave).

Failing that, the Sauna has probably become unlovely, unrelaxing, and
no doubt littered with broken beer bottles.  When everyone who /was/
enjoying the sauna has walked out to go somewhere else and the hosts
have finally put out the fire it'll be ... cold too.

And that's where we're at.  Well built Sauna though, it's taken over
six-and-a-half-years to cool down.


What would you do?

  * So far, some have failed to respond to the peer-pressure.
  * Failed to show at a Community Council, or even put it on the Agenda.
  * Notched up the offensive rhetoric afterwards thus proving the above


Could be (future tense).  Has been (past tense).  Is currently? (No).

-Paul  (IMHO. E&OE)

Re: CC Preferred meeting times (was: This list)

Mike Basinger — 2011-04-20T04:19:23

I tell this to the rest of the CC, but it does not change what I said earlier.

Mike

On Apr 19, 2011, at 10:15 PM, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:


--
Mike Basinger
mike.basinger< at >ubuntu.com

Re: CC Preferred meeting times (was: This list)

Cybe R. Wizard — 2011-04-20T04:15:27

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 00:12:42 -0400
Michael Haney <thezorch< at >gmail.com> wrote:


+1

Cybe R. Wizard