gmane.games.spielfrieks

File - Spielfrieks Etiquette Text

2012-05-13T07:43:53

Spielfrieks Etiquette

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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Josh Bluestein — 2012-05-10T13:12:46

Hi Mik --

I definitely agree.  I had been going to say that I thought pre-ordering
for Essen had a better likelihood of yielding a good game, but I haven't
quite enough experience with the small/self-published crowd putting stuff
out at Essen.  What experience I have through that avenue, though, has been
fairly positive.

Josh

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:22 AM, Michael Svellov <svellov-0CVw3DpRQE5knbxzx/v8hQ< at >public.gmane.org> wrote


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Peter Clinch — 2012-05-10T10:36:32

Fair point.  I have a 3d printer sitting here in the lab behind me, and 
we've started using it to make components for the stuff our department 
does.  But it would take one hell of a long time to make up the 
components of a game.

My principle objection to buying new games isn't cost in money but lack 
of time to play and places to store.  The £20-£30 it actually costs to 
get one isn't actually that much in real terms since I long ago reached 
the point where the time ~ money equation sees me spending money to save 
time.

So I suspect 3d printing will, like crowdfunding, be hyped as the big 
new thing sweeping all before it... etc., and ending up playing its own 
part along side existing production methods.

Pete.

Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Michael Svellov — 2012-05-10T10:22:30

Josh:

This is no different than good old-school pre-ordering of games for Essen. You either risk wasting your money on a game that wasn't as good as your thought, or you may not be able to buy it later. The main difference being that the game is often close to being finished when you pre-order/pay, and more importantly: you often pay *less* than everybody else, and also receive *free* bonus items; where with Kickstarter you usually pay more.

Mik


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Re: Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Michael Svellov — 2012-05-10T07:46:02

Jonathan:

I assume there is a market, otherwise they wouldn't still be offered, but the market is just a small corner of an already tiny market.

People who only buys a small number of games would not be interested. And we who buys planety of games already have more components to pilfer than we would ever need. So what's the point?

In an ideal world I would prefer components especially created for a particular game, and especially for me. But I am not interested in paying for it.

In Settlers I do not prefer the new improved plastic cities to the oldfashioned wooden churches.
In Mage Knight I am very satisfied with the hand painted miniatures because I don't want to spend hours doing it myself, so until someone creates a 3D printer that includes a hand paiting robot, I am not interested.

Mik

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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Anye Mercy — 2012-05-09T21:41:17

IMNSHO, anything that keeps publishers from putting out a game that will
fail is a good thing. If a publisher does a KS campaign for a game and it
bombs - they'd have to be crazy to publish the game. (Note, some
publishers may indeed be crazy.)

The onus should be on the publisher doing the KS to make sure that buyers
have as much information about the game possible so that they can be
confident they really want the game. Usually this would mean getting out
there to cons and letting the unwashed masses play prototype versions, so
that buzz can spread and People With Clout can vouch for the game being
worth investing it. Of course a curmudgeon like me would only buy the game
if I'd played it myself, but that's because I'm old and jaded. My one KS
'on spec' ended up being 'not for me' but I knew it was a popular enough
game I could resell it (and I did). I won't KS on spec anymore without a
really good reason. But I've gotten a few really excellent games through
KS where I had played the prototype and knew what I was getting.

Some people seem resistant to the idea that the risk of the publishing
business would thus shift to the consumer instead of the publisher - this
is somewhat true however it is an educated risk on the part of the consumer
and will not break the bank even if it ends up being a flop. The consumer
would lose probably $50 bucks give or take on a KS game that they turned
out to not like. A publisher could be out tens of thousands of dollars on
a flop. You could argue that they deserve it for putting out a game that
ends up not being a big hit, but that's a pretty expensive lesson for any
small (or even big, by our hobby standards - Hasbro not included) to
swallow.

I guess my POV is tainted by empathy, having been a publisher of both games
that did well and games that did not do well - but if I'd been able to KS
my games and see which ones would have had the market up front, I can see
that my business would have been more successful overall. I absolutely
would rather see publishers using KS than putting out games no one will
buy, potentially taking a financial bath in the process. It's still up to
them to prove to me that I should buy their game (which will be even harder
using KS) but they lose very little if they fail to convince me.

Re: publisher profit - please remember that all selling a game direct does
is shift the # of games that have to sell before they profit *at all*
lower. Don't think about the profit on an individual game by itself,
because if they print 2k copies of the game and sell 200 via KS and 100 in
distribution they have still got a MAJOR loss on their hands, assuming
standard pricing percentages. Please try to remember it's not a 'get rich
quick' business...it's actually quite difficult to make money in the
industry at all unless you are very lucky or already have a big name (which
means you already got lucky, in most cases). Just having a good game isn't
enough, but that's another topic ;)

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Chris Brua <ChrisBrua-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Chris Brua — 2012-05-09T21:19:12

It depends on the game and the publisher, but in general I think
established publishers using Kickstarter is just marketing.  There's
no risk of the game not actually getting produced, so they're using
Kickstarter just to promote awareness and leverage social networking
("Back the Planet P project Josh!  If it gets to $50K we get plastic
space ships instead of counters.")  The cynic in me can't help but
think it might also net the publisher more profit on each copy they
pre-sell (no distribution channel discounts).

For a reprint, P500 / KS makes sense as a way to gauge interest.  It's
a known entity.  People know pretty much what they'll be getting.

For a new property, P500 / KS seems a bit disingenuous to me.  The
publisher is getting people to contribute money upfront, to reduce the
publisher's investment risk, with little information for those people
to go on.  The KS exclusive trinkets make it seem even more insidious.
 As you said, we all know what is happening, so each person makes
their own decision as to whether the risk is worth the expense to
them.  It just feels kind of sordid to me...like the publisher knows
the game is mediocre so they're going the KS route to get early sales
before information about the game spreads.

I've only backed two board game KS projects.  The first was Fire
Rescue, because it seemed like an honest plea of "we don't have the
cash flow to produce this game" and the game idea appealed enough to
me that I was willing to take the risk.  The other is Agents of Smersh
because it seemed like the kind of game that would be difficult to get
a traditional publisher to produce so KS might be the only way for it
to get made -- and the idea of a co-op, paragraph based story game
intrigued me enough to take the risk.

I had not heard of the "Springboard Seal of Quality" until you
mentioned it.  Now that I've looked them up, it looks like a marketing
gimmick to promote their "Featured Fulfillment" service.  :/

--Chris

PS.  The proper response for Josh to give to his friend regarding
backing the Planet P project is "Why me?"  ;)


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RE: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

pfbrennan — 2012-05-09T20:38:23

And odds are that anything that turns out to be brilliant is going to be
picked up and re-printed anyway (and probably with better quality).

Patrick





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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Josh Bluestein — 2012-05-09T19:42:36

Hi Chris --

I was careful to phrase my initial statement -- I've played seven
Kickstarter-produced games (now eight), but I didn't sponsor all seven of
those. Two of those were brought to me by others with some
recommendations, and I did steer clear of another that I had a shot at
playing but didn't (and based on after-play reports, I don't much regret
it).

(Incidentally, the eighth KS game that I played, Sunrise City, goes on the
pile as a 'pretty good' -- about the same quality as Alien Frontiers or
Zong Shi.)

If you have an established game publisher Kickstarting a game a la P500, do
you feel that that's more like taking preorders or more like gauging the
interest? Certainly in some cases it seems like the actual funding goals
are set low enough that it doesn't take much effort to meet them, so maybe
it's the former.

I came to the realization, though, that the games on Kickstarter fell into
two rough categories, and that neither was the sort of category I was
comfortable supporting without a lot more research. Self-published games,
as you've noted, are very risky. Games being published by established
publishing companies are more likely to be solid, but even that's not the
same as a guarantee that I'll like it -- it means it's less likely to have
any glaring playability errors. Furthermore, games published by
established companies will be available later, so if I play it and discover
that I missed out on financing an awesome game then I always have a chance
to just buy a copy.

It seems to me that the worst cases all center around self-published
games: Either I pony up and get a lousy game or I hold off and miss out on
a now-unobtainable masterpiece. I think the odds favor the conservative
approach at this point.

Other Kickstarter-related items: The Springboard Seal of Quality. I don't
entirely understand the value of this award. It seems to be a way for
Kickstarter projects to proclaim that their game has been looked at by
industry people and pronounced to be good. But I don't really know who the
GameSalute people are or why I should consider their opinion to be
particularly relevant. This may sound curmudgeonly, but I don't intend it
as such. Springboard has put their seal of quality on quite a few games.
Of the ones they've done that I've played...not universally impressed.

Also, I am turned off by the drive to overfunding goals that seems to be
becoming more prevalent in Kickstarter. I get that there's an element of
salesmanship in running a campaign like this, but I think I'd rather see
more emphasis on rules quality and less on chrome.

Josh

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Chris Brua <ChrisBrua-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Clay Blankenship — 2012-05-09T19:41:28

They might not have to convince a publisher but they still have to convince
a certain number of people to put up the cash.  I'm sure it's not perfect
but
at least it eliminates a lot of the chaff.  Most people aren't going to
throw
their money at anything unless they have a pretty good idea they will like
the game.

BTW what fraction of games on Kickstarter reach their funding goals?

Clay

RE: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Chris Lemon — 2012-05-09T19:16:05

Let this be marked as the first time something good actually came out of
Munchkin. :)

From: spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org [mailto:spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org] On
Behalf Of Greg Aleknevicus
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 12:02 PM
To: spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org
Subject: RE: [spielfrieks] Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

The new, ultra-deluxe version of Ogre would have been published regardless.
When it was first announced (long before it was a Kickstarter project),
Steve Jackson stated that it did not really make financial sense to do so.
However, the success of Munchkin allowed him to do something that HE
personally wanted to see. It was, in some ways, a vanity project. (You can
read about this in the Daily Illuminator archives at www.sjgames.com.)

RE: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Greg Aleknevicus — 2012-05-09T19:02:00

The new, ultra-deluxe version of Ogre would have been published regardless.
When it was first announced (long before it was a Kickstarter project),
Steve Jackson stated that it did not really make financial sense to do so.
However, the success of Munchkin allowed him to do something that HE
personally wanted to see. It was, in some ways, a vanity project. (You can
read about this in the Daily Illuminator archives at www.sjgames.com.)

Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Chris Brua — 2012-05-09T18:51:28

I'm kind of surprised your success rate is so high.  Kickstarter board
game projects seem highly speculative to me unless they come from an
established designer, and then I would wonder why that designer chose
the Kickstarter route for that game instead of working with a
publisher.  Everyone thinks their game design is great.  If they can't
convince a publisher of that though, I have to wonder just how good
the game really is - and so I'm unlikely to buy a copy until I've read
about others' experiences playing it.  I've played a few
self-published games that I thought were good (Alien Frontiers comes
to mind) but most of the self-published games I've come in contact
with have been "not that great": Pirate King, The HellGame,
Frontier-6, The Gothic Game, ... Wadjet.

I like seeing Kickstarter used as a way to gauge interest in
reprinting an old game (Ogre, Montage, etc.).  I'm not fond of seeing
it used as a pre-order mechanism (those Queen games that I can't think
of right now).  They're the same thing to some extent, but I see it as
a lack of sincerity.  I believe Montage & Ogre would not have been
published if they did not hit their targets.  I think Queen would have
published that dice-rolling temple game no matter what happened with
the Kickstarter project.

I think Kickstarter will be around for quite a while doing the thing
it was intended to do in the first place: match up quirky/niche/unique
products/services/artistic works with people who are willing to give
away money in the hope of seeing those ideas come to fruition.  A scam
will scare off the people who are only in it for the "bonuses".  The
philanthropists will remain.

--Chris

PS.  Off topic, but I'm grateful Kickstarter exists as a way for "old"
video game designers to make new games in the style of games I loved
that are no longer in vogue (DoubleFine Adventure, Wasteland 2, Jane
Jensen's Moebius).  That is something I happily support that I don't
think would ever have happened without Kickstarter.


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RE: Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Degann, Jonathan B — 2012-05-09T18:26:40

I described it not as the only real delivery method, but the only real home delivery method, by which I mean "on demand".  

The best home delivery method is of course UPS/USPS.  But if you want the game on demand, an iPad beats the hell out of print and play - certainly out of 3D print and play - for quality, convenience, and cost.

Jonathan Degann 
213-345-6698 (ofc)


-----Original Message-----
From: spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org [mailto:spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Chris Lemon
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 11:20 AM
To: spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org
Subject: RE: [spielfrieks] Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

And those of us who value $500 don't have an iPad.

 

Sorry, suggesting that as the only "real" delivery method rankles the crap out of me.

 

From: spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org [mailto:spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Degann, Jonathan B
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:19 AM
To: spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org
Subject: RE: [spielfrieks] Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

 

  

I really fail to see the contribution of 3D printing here. 

As others have pointed out, the preponderance of 3D components in most of our games are generic. Wooden houses, meeples, cubes... If this print & play model were appealing, we'd see it in full bloom on the 2D front, along with games using the Cheapass model, in which players supply their own generic parts.

The key proprietary components in most games are the board and the cards - both available in 2D. People who like the feel of "real" games like the high quality printing and the mounting of the map board. Sure, I can print on a bunch of 8 1/2" x 11" cardstock and tape it together, but that isn't very satisfying. I can print cards onto index cards but... I don't want to. 

The real home delivery system for board games exists and it is in wide use.
It's called the iPad. Those who value that speed of delivery and convenience
- along with many other things that electronics uniquely offers. Those of us who like the tactile nature of board games also like the professional quality of production.

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RE: Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Chris Lemon — 2012-05-09T18:19:36

And those of us who value $500 don't have an iPad.

 

Sorry, suggesting that as the only "real" delivery method rankles the crap
out of me.

 

From: spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org [mailto:spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org] On
Behalf Of Degann, Jonathan B
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:19 AM
To: spielfrieks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org
Subject: RE: [spielfrieks] Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad
?

 

  

I really fail to see the contribution of 3D printing here. 

As others have pointed out, the preponderance of 3D components in most of
our games are generic. Wooden houses, meeples, cubes... If this print & play
model were appealing, we'd see it in full bloom on the 2D front, along with
games using the Cheapass model, in which players supply their own generic
parts.

The key proprietary components in most games are the board and the cards -
both available in 2D. People who like the feel of "real" games like the high
quality printing and the mounting of the map board. Sure, I can print on a
bunch of 8 1/2" x 11" cardstock and tape it together, but that isn't very
satisfying. I can print cards onto index cards but... I don't want to. 

The real home delivery system for board games exists and it is in wide use.
It's called the iPad. Those who value that speed of delivery and convenience
- along with many other things that electronics uniquely offers. Those of us
who like the tactile nature of board games also like the professional
quality of production.

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Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part of this EC may have
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This message is subject to terms available at the following link: 
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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Larry — 2012-05-09T18:19:28


There are many who get very excited about games created for Piecepack and similar systems.  I'm not one of them.  I like the fact that I can open up a game box and not have to scrounge around for the components necessary to play it.  I'm also reassured that the components were designed for the specific game, rather than the game being designed around the components, which is always a suspicion with these generic systems.  It also gives a publisher a chance to customize the components to enhance the theme of the game.

Maybe that means that I have a bit too much disposible income, but I'm happy to pony up more money to get a finished product whenever I buy a game.

Larry



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Re: Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Jonathan Franklin — 2012-05-09T17:54:07

If we springboard off of Jonathan D's idea, is there a market for a 'kit'
that has 50 houses in six colors, currency, 10 meeples in 6 colors and 20
meeples in four of those six, etc?  I know Mayday and others sell these
individually.

Is it possible that Stonehenge, Piecepack, and Icepacks are just the wrong
bits for a 21st century modular game system?

- Jonathan

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Degann, Jonathan B <degann-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>wrote:



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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RE: Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Degann, Jonathan B — 2012-05-09T17:19:12

I really fail to see the contribution of 3D printing here.

As others have pointed out, the preponderance of 3D components in most of our games are generic. Wooden houses, meeples, cubes... If this print & play model were appealing, we'd see it in full bloom on the 2D front, along with games using the Cheapass model, in which players supply their own generic parts.

The key proprietary components in most games are the board and the cards - both available in 2D. People who like the feel of "real" games like the high quality printing and the mounting of the map board. Sure, I can print on a bunch of 8 1/2" x 11" cardstock and tape it together, but that isn't very satisfying. I can print cards onto index cards but... I don't want to.

The real home delivery system for board games exists and it is in wide use. It's called the iPad. Those who value that speed of delivery and convenience - along with many other things that electronics uniquely offers. Those of us who like the tactile nature of board games also like the professional quality of production.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
This message w/attachments (message) is intended solely for the use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or proprietary. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender, and then please delete and destroy all copies and attachments, and be advised that any review or dissemination of, or the taking of any action in reliance on, the information contained in or attached to this message is prohibited.
Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept, monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law enforcement, in litigation and as required by law.
The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling of EC, and EC may be archived, supervised and produced in countries other than the country in which you are located. This message cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses.

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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

2012-05-09T17:18:26

Not necessarily. You just create a model that has all the pieces laid out, and print it all at once as long as it fits in the volume of the printer.


On May 9, 2012, at 9:06 AM, Dan Blum wrote:



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Dan Blum — 2012-05-09T16:06:39

I'm sure that will happen, but I am much less sure it will become widespread.
My impression of 3D printers is that they are fairly slow. This is fine if
you are printing one thing, but if you need to print, say, 20 pieces each
for five players, it could take a very long time. And doing things like cards 
and tiles won't likely be any different than it is now.

Re: Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Jonathan Franklin — 2012-05-09T16:00:01

I was just thinking that the current 2D print and play model will be even
better when the games can be distributed with customized parts and no/less
assembly required.

You would just buy the game as the equivalent of a pdf file for a set of 2D
& 3D objects.

- Jonathan

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Michael Svellov <svellov-0CVw3DpRQE5knbxzx/v8hQ< at >public.gmane.org>wrote:



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