gmane.culture.transportation.humanpowered.velomobile

Re: Twike

JOHN TETZ — 2012-01-13T03:27:33

Frederik wrote;

Pedal power is mostly an exercise gimmick as it represents maybe 5% of the total available power. 


That is exactly what I wanted to say. You said it more elegantly than I would have. 
To me having a vehicle that can be moved mostly by human power is elegant.  

John   100 watt 4.3 pound assist  Tetz 
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Re: Twike

Frederik Van De Walle — 2012-01-12T23:48:04

Not a velomobile in my eyes. A velomobile in my opinion is defined by the requirements of human power. With electrical assist, power levels should remain within human power magnitudes to remain a velomobile. When the electric engine becomes stronger, it starts to dominate the character of the vehicle. You become dependent on it. Before you know it, you end up with a motor vehicle. Such is the case with the Twike, it started as a too big, heavy and slow hpv and found its purposes as a little efficient motor vehicle before its time. Vehicle weight is light for a car, but very heavy if one would count it as a velomobile. Pedal power is mostly an exercise gimmick as it represents maybe 5% of the total available power. 

If this kind of electrical vehicle is of interest, also have a look at the coming Renault Twizy. A little light electrical commuter vehicle that is both likable, practical in town and that will be relatively very cheap.

/Frederik 
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Re: Velomobile Digest, Vol 57, Issue 10

Ladislav Blaha — 2012-01-12T17:29:01

If you read info about twike carefully, you find that you could not be 
able to ride one without electric assist. Its electric car with pedals. 
Many  users confirm same info. I do not consider it as velomobile.
Ladia
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Twike price

Paolo Bartoli — 2012-01-11T17:44:27

Found some price informations on Twike website, not a cheap choice!


Prices 2010
TWIKE Easy from 16.590,- (excluded batteries)
TWIKE Activefrom 17.190,- (excluded batteries)

Batteries
Range 60-80 kmLi-Ion 9,6 Ah€ 5.976,-
Range 90-110 kmLi-Ion 14,4 Ah€ 8.964,-
Range 120-150 kmLi-Ion 19,2 Ah€ 11.952,-
Range 160-200 kmLi-Ion 24,0 Ah€ 14.940,-

All prices are including VAT and excluding Dutch registration and delivery costs.


Paolo Bartoli, Monza Italy
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Twike is a velomobile?

Paolo Bartoli — 2012-01-11T17:40:13

Hello,
would you consider the Twike still a velomobile? http://www.twike.com/en/home/home.html

It has many of the features that we're talking about. Of course it is much wider that conventional velomobiles, but I think that right now we're talking of something like an evolution of the velomobile typology, closer to a full-featured vehicle regarding safety etc.
On their website you can read they sold 900 units in 10 years, around 90/year.

BTW, I have no idea of the Twike price… Anyone?

Paolo Bartoli, Monza Italy
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Re: Velomobile design

2012-01-11T00:47:11

Hi Everyone,
I joined this list years ago hoping to get inspired into building a velomobile. Young children, landscaping and an unenthusiastic wife have gotten in the way. So I still have a trike aero shell hanging in my garage but no trike or progress. I am not sure if I will be able to contribute this list but I'll throw some requirements for the sort of velo I'd like.

1. Cost: Under $5k. Rotovelo comes close but has other down sides. I will have to buy a second car soon which will be about $10k, travel 5k km a year and cost 4k a year in parts and depreciation. However the benefits are well known and shareable. I currently have 12k km up on my bike over 12 years however a good velomobile might see 5-10k km a year. Considering a suspended trike costs about $5k this price maybe too optimistic.

2. Speed: 32km/h. Current commute is 35minutes at 22km/h on the bike. Speed increases versatility. Lifting the average speed to 32km/h (20mph) would cut commute to 25minutes. Interestingly if my commute has 30% uphill at 20km/h, 30% downhill at 60km/h and 40% flat at 40km/h the average speed is about 32km/h. Wind kill downhill and flat speed, weight kills uphill speed and weight kills uphill speed. Uphill contributes more to longer trip times than fast downhill removes.

3. Power assist. Australia may have a limit of 200W but I tell you an unfit person riding an assisted bike is difficult to keep up with. The biggest contributor to the weight of vehicle is the rider not the vehicle. If a good cyclist puts out 300W and weigh 100kg including the bike, then adding 200W and 30kg is equivalent to the original cyclist with a total weight of just 80kg. Power assist is also essential for cargo capacity as the weight kills performance so much. Trike builders tend to by HPV purists and electric assist is not a common option. Batteries are really heavy anymore so speed governs range more than battery weight.

4. Cargo capacity: 1+1. The ability to cram in a passenger or cargo makes the velo more than just a toy. This is the biggest problem with the trike plus fairing option. There are very few 1+1 trikes primarily because of the lack of power assist I suspect. To be useful the cargo capacity must be inside the weather shell.

5. Weather protection. Both rider and cargo need protection. Lack of weather protection will halve the number of days it can be used and renders it not much better than a trike.

6. Suspension: Canberra bike paths are full of tree roots and ramps.

7. Safety. There is not a big motorcycle culture in Australia. People I know who rode motor cycles generally stopped after their first accident. Canberra has largely segregated cycle ways making velo usage possible. I would not be riding a velo on the open road. It is no better than motorcycle and lacks the power to get out of the way of blind motorists. First assumption on a bike is the motorist is dumb. If the velo is hooking downhill at 60km/h I would also want protection in case control is lost. Rolling, sliding or hitting a tree. Generally I'm thinking of seat belts, full face helmets and impact absorbing shell (such as a honeycomb shell).

Gavin Walker
Canberra, Australia

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Re: Velomobile design

Giles Puckett — 2012-01-08T02:24:38

I'd like it if there _were_ any companies to do lobbying here - people 
have tried to sell these things, but nobody lasts long in the business. 
They always seemed to be bickering, fragmented and demoralised.


When lawyers got involved, and if there was substantial damage or 
injury, you can bet the rules would change real quick.

G.


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Re: Velomobile design

Rob Hague — 2012-01-07T08:09:41

The liability costs following a collision could be a big problem though.
Rob

On 7 Jan 2012, at 02:58, David M. Eggleston wrote:


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Re: Velomobile design

David M. Eggleston — 2012-01-07T02:58:09

Hi Giles,

  You make a good point. We have the same problem in the States, although 
the Consumer Products Safety Commission allows up to 1 HP motors for assist, 
as long as the speed is limited to be less than or equal to 20 mph. That 
makes this a national standard. I believe this standard resulted from 
substantial lobbying by electric bike companies.
I understand that California allows motors up to 2 HP and speeds up to 30 
mph, although you need to have a driver's license to qualify. As a practical 
matter, no governmental bodies seem to be interested in enforcing these 
speeds or power levels, so they only have the effect of limiting what 
manufacturers can sell. Otherwise it is likely nobody would notice 
violations of this law unless lawyers got involved.

David

-----Original Message----- 
From: Giles Puckett
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:25 PM
To: David M. Eggleston ; velomobile< at >hupi.org
Subject: Re: [Velomobile] Velomobile design

On 4/01/2012 5:02 AM, David M. Eggleston wrote:
[lots of interesting stuff snipped]

Thanks David, I concur with all your points. There's one other that
might not be uppermost in the minds of people in the USA, but probably
more so in Europe and Australia: inconsistency of laws relating to
power-assist. Here in Australia we have a lot of hilly country, coupled
with brain-snappingly stupid power restrictions (now 200W peak - with
the possibility of 250W plus pedelec and speed limits soon!)

Any velo is so much heavier than a bicycle that it needs all the help it
can get uphill - that's where the average speed of any bicycle trip is
determined, so how much more so for a velo. My own homebuilt attempts at
streamlining certainly got me to the bottom of the next hill much
faster, which was fun as long as it lasted, but took me twice as long to
get up to the top again!

So lobbying for reasonable power limits and restrictions of these things
is paramount in places that limit them unreasonably. The present laws in
Oz seem to be specifically designed to prevent practical
car-alternatives from ever being built.

G.


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Re: Velomobile design

Giles Puckett — 2012-01-07T01:25:15

[lots of interesting stuff snipped]

Thanks David, I concur with all your points. There's one other that 
might not be uppermost in the minds of people in the USA, but probably 
more so in Europe and Australia: inconsistency of laws relating to 
power-assist. Here in Australia we have a lot of hilly country, coupled 
with brain-snappingly stupid power restrictions (now 200W peak - with 
the possibility of 250W plus pedelec and speed limits soon!)

Any velo is so much heavier than a bicycle that it needs all the help it 
can get uphill - that's where the average speed of any bicycle trip is 
determined, so how much more so for a velo. My own homebuilt attempts at 
streamlining certainly got me to the bottom of the next hill much 
faster, which was fun as long as it lasted, but took me twice as long to 
get up to the top again!

So lobbying for reasonable power limits and restrictions of these things 
is paramount in places that limit them unreasonably. The present laws in 
Oz seem to be specifically designed to prevent practical 
car-alternatives from ever being built.

G.

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Paths to future velos

David M. Eggleston — 2012-01-06T17:10:40

Hi John,

Thanks for your detailed reply. It is good to be back in contact with you. In view of your long experience and accomplishments I place a high value on what you say. And we old farts need to stick together!

David

From: JOHN TETZ 
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 8:04 PM
To: David M. Eggleston 
Subject: Re: [Velomobile] Velomobile design

David Eggleston

Thank you for giving your experienced and wide ranging overview on various VM issues. Very valuable information. 
I agree we have a lot yet to learn but we have accomplished a lot in these last 10 years of VM development.

......Too much of a range is asking a lot of a design, given the power source is so weak. Seems to me that honing a design for a specific area of need is more apt to be accomplished. Cars range from small to large with few to many features to accomplish various needs.

   I admit to being a fan of VM.nl and their design and manufacturing work. In the Quest and Mango (and now Strada) they have all-around velos that do well in many uses. Good aerodynamics blesses you every time you push on the pedals, and I can see why so many find that specification so important. Also your safety is enhanced by going fast, so the relative velocity differences with respect to traffic are smaller and the reaction time after detecting you is in your favor, at least for city riding.
   I used to use a PA system we developed, and thought I was getting full exercise anyway. Not so. When I visited the NL in 2008, a bit sick and jet-lagged and riding a borrowed velo, I was unable to keep up with a fast velo group. Marjolein, a 60-year-old very fit lady, drifted back to push me so I could keep up. Then I realized that I needed every scrap of exercise I could get to approach their level of fitness. I would never have been able to train and complete ROAM if I had been relying on a PA system previously, unless of course I had a reliable such PA system in my Quest. But I am the sailing type that disdains power assist for personal use, so have to be content with what my body can do. Also I refuse to carry around the extra weight of motor and batteries that I don’t really need. I go for a lightweight velo.

What I have set my sights on is a practical suburban human powered alternate transportation vehicle to be used by average folks to do their shopping and running errands in the 2 to 5 mile radius. Average speed 14 mph. These design limits give the opportunity to come up with a viable vehicle.

........How true this is. But I look at the fact that the bare trike business is booming. Although adding a shell of some kind may not be ideal it does change a trike into a vehicle, a vehicle that is first of all not seasonably limited, has weather protection, some crash protection, more visible to cars etc. This will change the consciousness of the trike rider into using the vehicle more as local alternate transportation rather than just recreation

.> The covered trike needs a lot of cargo space. I’m not sure how much the Velocity Velo body has. Maybe it is adequate. One can hope that it will change the consciousness.

Second, by being seen by the public these vehicles will affect their awareness. I see and hear a change in the publics response to my VM over a 7 year period. They more often comment now - it doesn't use gas, its good for the environment, and its good for the health of the rider, etc. 
I am hearing more and more happy - I like what you are doing horn honks - from drivers. 
The publics environmental awareness is changing. We need a viable practical vehicle. 
It doesn't need all the wish list of advanced features.

I designed my present VM 8 years ago coming from a long background with streamliners and the thrill of speed.
What's important to me now is weather protection (head in), light weight, quiet, ease of access to decent cargo space, some amount of suspension, small physical size for parking reasons. Aerodynamics is there but further down the list. 
This is accomplishable given what we know. 
In another 10 years more viable vehicles will be developed. 

As regards head-in, Frans van der Merwe’s Pterovelo used a breathing tube to minimize inside condensation on ROAM. Others have done the same thing. Mary Arneson and her Cab-Bikes didn’t have this setup, AFAIK. It would not be a big deal to add it. One of my customers living in northern Idaho came up with it on his own. The Dutch aversion to it is to some extent justified by the dangers of limiting your visual field in any way. If the big vehicles I share the roads with misjudge my intentions or fail to see me they could crush me and hardly notice it. I’m quite sure they wouldn’t even get a citation for doing it. Just a hint of a shadow or an unexpected light beam crossing my peripheral vision can scare the hell out of me. It is one of the problems of the reclined position combined with age that I can’t turn my head far enough to see backwards. Even now I sometimes pull out not knowing for sure, but estimating from the lack of vehicle noise that it must be safe. Mirrors have limitations too. Sometimes my mirrors show nothing, but somebody pulls out and accelerates fast and passes me when I had no idea they were there until I hear them. So limiting sound cues by enclosing the cockpit is also a worry. Maybe I need a rear-view camera and dash-mounted screen for safety.

.....Yes, but some method of sharing ideas is very important. Look at the advancements made after the birth of the IHPVA in 1975 - which eventually lead to present day Velomobiles

. >Yes, but John Abbey states an obvious worry, why should I share my ideas so somebody else can profit from them instead of me. At the current level of awareness on the hupi list, this is probably not a problem, but it is a worry.

In some ways its less a technology issue than a change in consciousness as to why and how we use these vehicles. Requiring the wish list of advanced features hints of 19th and 20th century thinking where the Earths energy and resources were thought to be limitless. Efficiency - doing more with less - is the 21st century password. HPVs are up with the efficiency of railroad trains and super tankers.

There is indeed a great discrepancy between the 142 velo crowd of mostly Quests and Mangos (and Stradas) at the 2011 Olliebollentocht a few days ago, and the local bike scene. I am still in the “watch that roadie recede in the rear-view mirror” crowd. Even as old and slow as I am, I now have a carbon fiber Quest that I ordered for ROAM. The original was crushed in shipment and I only got a replacement in November. Going fast is still important to me. Also, since my friend John Abbey is living with us, working for VMUSA, and riding his velo with me, and is much younger and faster, I need to have some chance of keeping up with him, or at least not getting so far behind that he gives up on me. 
   Ymte uses a cargo trailer on a Quest for bulky packages. That way he still has the advantage of a fast vehicle when he drops the trailer. I tend to use our car for that, even though I have a cargo trailer, since I rarely need it and sometimes the car is necessary for the trip anyway. My body fat content was 18.7% according to my Tanita sports scale before ROAM, but dropped to 5% afterwards. It is now up to 10%, and unless I ride a lot more will keep going up. I am fighting to retain my fitness but seem to be losing the battle. I just don’t have time to ride enough to stabilize it anymore.

Notice for one how I have skirted the issue of funding.

We had a chance to visit Chet Kyle on our way up to Portland for ROAM. He had a crash due to a fawn jumping in front of him a year ago or so, and is recovered but not quite the same. He has cleaned out his office and cut down or cut out his consulting on bicycle speed. I guess we both have to look forward to that sort of thing, unfortunately. I will keep at it as long as possible.

John Tetz 

David Eggleston
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Re: Affordable velomobiles

JOHN TETZ — 2012-01-06T02:41:33

Terry wrote;

........Adding a shell on a vehicle that wasn't designed for a shell often has some disadvantages such as the seat being too reclined etc. I would like to see a couple of trike manufactures build a trike layout that is compatible for adding a shell (not a big deal). Then homebuilders could experiment with building their own shells - and we all learn in the process. 

....I have small motion suspension and it does a reasonable job and it only adds about a pound for the two front wheels. I also have been running the fat Primo Comets for years. With their thin sidewalls they give the smoothest ride and great acceleration. Big Apples ride a bit harsher but acceptable.  I run the Comets at 60 psi

....I case you don't know I built a E assist that does a fair job of taking he sting out of the hills and only weighs 4.3 pounds. 

......I feel it doable. My foam shell weighs 7 pounds and I would think it could be manufactured fairly low cost. But the major problem is getting acceptance of foam. That's the big one. 

John Tetz  
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Re: Affordable velomobiles

Chris Jordan — 2012-01-05T23:59:22

I built also mainly because of price (however I far exceeded final total cost of a factory-built VM in 6 years).  Many are pretty and sleek but just totally impossible to get into/out of. Keeping that in mind would be very important to at least 1/3 of interested VM buyers.    I cut 2 side doors in my $3000. streamliner shell for my use.  I sure enjoyed Davids comments-  I built mine for flat out speed, thinking that was of utmost importance.  Vibration and noise were very small problems to me and were pretty much solved adding 9 sq ft. of insulation and foam padding, overpadding the seat and using foam and "real"rubber on every single joint, finally using fatter tires.  It was 110 pounds in 2010 (77 pounds in 2005). 

 What killed it WAS speed.  I could use that motor (added in 2007) and get 35 mph easily on the flat, but when I added gravity (a long hill with new asphalt) for the first and last time that was my zenith!  50 mph watching the blur and listening only to the wind 'whoosh' was way too much for me. In 2 weeks it was all stripped down.  Putting an aero body and going like a bat was what I wanted; which is what about half of that 1/3 of customers want.  If I got 14 mph from any trike after 16 mph riding a bare-bones TerraTrike I would be pretty angry!  But flat out speed is not all that important to me anymore.

Maybe a "sexy looking" shell with Lamborghini doors on both sides is more important than speed.

Live and learn. :D
 
__Chris Jordan__
*countersTrike*


________________________________
 From: Terry Rouse <oldrocketman< at >att.net>
To: JOHN TETZ <jgtetz< at >msn.com>; velomobile< at >hupi.org 
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2012 7:43 AM
Subject: [Velomobile] Affordable velomobiles
 
I agree with most of what John says. I have gotten a lot of favorable responses 
from motorists as I cruise about in my homemade velomobile. And a lot of 
questions from interested persons. The biggest hurdle for many folks and the 
reason I made my own is cost. When I tell people what a commercial velomobile 
would cost the typical response is, "I could buy a car for that". The cost has 
to come down for these to become practical transportation. For several years I 
rode a Catrike Speed to which I added a body. My main objections to it were the 
harsh ride and lack of good road hazard vision due to the body and reclined 
position. There has been a resurgence of single speed bikes around here and I 
suspect that is mostly due to the simplicity of the design. It is very hilly 
here and I can't imagine why anyone would want to pedal up some of our hills, 
but they are doing it. So in short I think the KISS principle applies here. Keep 
it simple stupid. My current homemade velomobile has a small amount of 
suspension to dampen the jarring effects of bad roads and I plan to add Schwalbe 
Big Apples when my current tires wear out to see how that affects the ride and 
handling. I think the big challenge will be coming up with a design that can be 
economically produced on a big scale. Sort of a Model T version of the 
velomobile. Making them one at a time is never going to be cost effective.  I 
see some major design challenges making them light enough to be practical, while 
relatively easy to manufacture. To me the Rotovelo is step in the right 
direction.




________________________________
From: JOHN TETZ <jgtetz< at >msn.com>
To: velomobile< at >hupi.org
Sent: Wed, January 4, 2012 8:09:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Velomobile] Intellectual Property

David Eggleston 

Thank you for giving your experienced and wide ranging overview on various VM 
issues. Very valuable information. 

I agree we have a lot yet to learn but we have accomplished a lot in these last 
10 years of VM development. 


......Too much of a range is asking a lot of a design, given the power source is 
so weak. Seems to me that honing a design for a specific area of need is more 
apt to be accomplished. Cars range from small to large with few to many features 
to accomplish various needs. 


What I have set my sights on is a practical suburban human powered alternate 
transportation vehicle to be  used by average folks to do their shopping and 
running errands in the 2 to 5 mile radius. Average speed 14 mph. These design 
limits give the opportunity to come up with a viable vehicle. 


........How true this is. But I look at the fact that the bare trike business is 
booming. Although adding a shell of some kind may not be ideal it does change a 
trike into a vehicle, a vehicle that is first of all not seasonably limited, has 
weather protection, some crash protection, more visible to cars  etc. This will 
change the consciousness of the trike rider into using the vehicle more as local 
alternate transportation rather than just recreation. 


Second, by being seen by the public these vehicles will affect their awareness. 
I see and hear a change in the publics response to my VM over a 7 year period. 
They more often comment now - it doesn't use gas, its good for the environment, 
and its good for the health of the rider, etc.  

I am hearing more and more happy - I like what you are doing horn honks  -  from 
drivers. 

The publics environmental awareness is changing. We need a viable practical 
vehicle. 

It doesn't need all the wish list of advanced features. 

I designed my present VM 8 years ago coming from a long background with 
streamliners and the thrill of speed.
What's important to me now is weather protection (head in), light weight, quiet, 
ease of access to decent cargo space, some amount of suspension, small physical 
size for parking reasons. Aerodynamics is there but further down the list. 

This is accomplishable given what we know.  
In another 10 years more viable vehicles will be developed.  

.....Yes, but some method of sharing ideas is very important. Look at the 
advancements made after the birth of the IHPVA in 1975   - which eventually lead 
to present day Velomobiles. 


In some ways its less a technology issue than a change in consciousness as to 
why and how we use these vehicles. Requiring the wish list of advanced features 
hints of 19th and 20th century thinking where the Earths energy and resources 
were thought to be limitless. Efficiency - doing more with less - is the 21st 
century password. HPVs are up with the efficiency of railroad trains and super 
tankers.  


Notice for one how I have skirted the issue of funding. 

John Tetz 
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Re: Affordable velomobiles

Rob Hague — 2012-01-05T19:08:52

Nick - breakdown (including depreciation for different original purchase price cars and for different annual mileages) in the link I included.
Some of the costs are frightening and make velos - even the most expensive ones - look like bargains!

Rob


On 5 Jan 2012, at 18:56, Nickolas Hein wrote:


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Re: Affordable velomobiles

Nickolas Hein — 2012-01-05T18:56:14

Rob, et al,
I was just about to comment on that.  The objection isn't really to the
cost of the velomobile but to the value since most prospective buyers don't
know the cost.  You may buy a car for $10K USD, but you'll spend about the
same amount every year to fuel, maintain, insure it (and then there's
depreciation - the biggest cost and something you don't even get anything
for).  A few years ago I remember someone sharing a study that showed all
the costs for comparison.  Does anyone still have a link to it?
Thanks,
Nick Hein
Morgantown, WV

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Rob Hague <rob< at >wrhpv.com> wrote:

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Re: Affordable velomobiles

Rob Hague — 2012-01-05T17:19:12

And the response to "I could buy a car for that" is "... and what is the total cost of ownership for that car?" - how much per year does it *really* cost you?

The Automobile Association here in the UK claim that an average car costs 45p (92.5 US cents) per mile all in. Note that these figures do not include the additional cost of gym membership that may then be necessary to address the sedentary lifestyle of the car driver.
(http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/advice/advice_rcosts_petrol_table.jsp)

That is looking almost break-even on a new 'standard' velomobile each year :)

Rob


On 5 Jan 2012, at 15:43, Terry Rouse wrote:


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Affordable velomobiles

Terry Rouse — 2012-01-05T15:43:51

I agree with most of what John says. I have gotten a lot of favorable responses 
from motorists as I cruise about in my homemade velomobile. And a lot of 
questions from interested persons. The biggest hurdle for many folks and the 
reason I made my own is cost. When I tell people what a commercial velomobile 
would cost the typical response is, "I could buy a car for that". The cost has 
to come down for these to become practical transportation. For several years I 
rode a Catrike Speed to which I added a body. My main objections to it were the 
harsh ride and lack of good road hazard vision due to the body and reclined 
position. There has been a resurgence of single speed bikes around here and I 
suspect that is mostly due to the simplicity of the design. It is very hilly 
here and I can't imagine why anyone would want to pedal up some of our hills, 
but they are doing it. So in short I think the KISS principle applies here. Keep 
it simple stupid. My current homemade velomobile has a small amount of 
suspension to dampen the jarring effects of bad roads and I plan to add Schwalbe 
Big Apples when my current tires wear out to see how that affects the ride and 
handling. I think the big challenge will be coming up with a design that can be 
economically produced on a big scale. Sort of a Model T version of the 
velomobile. Making them one at a time is never going to be cost effective.  I 
see some major design challenges making them light enough to be practical, while 
relatively easy to manufacture. To me the Rotovelo is step in the right 
direction.




________________________________
From: JOHN TETZ <jgtetz< at >msn.com>
To: velomobile< at >hupi.org
Sent: Wed, January 4, 2012 8:09:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Velomobile] Intellectual Property

David Eggleston 

Thank you for giving your experienced and wide ranging overview on various VM 
issues. Very valuable information. 

I agree we have a lot yet to learn but we have accomplished a lot in these last 
10 years of VM development. 


......Too much of a range is asking a lot of a design, given the power source is 
so weak. Seems to me that honing a design for a specific area of need is more 
apt to be accomplished. Cars range from small to large with few to many features 
to accomplish various needs. 


What I have set my sights on is a practical suburban human powered alternate 
transportation vehicle to be  used by average folks to do their shopping and 
running errands in the 2 to 5 mile radius. Average speed 14 mph. These design 
limits give the opportunity to come up with a viable vehicle. 


........How true this is. But I look at the fact that the bare trike business is 
booming. Although adding a shell of some kind may not be ideal it does change a 
trike into a vehicle, a vehicle that is first of all not seasonably limited, has 
weather protection, some crash protection, more visible to cars  etc. This will 
change the consciousness of the trike rider into using the vehicle more as local 
alternate transportation rather than just recreation. 


Second, by being seen by the public these vehicles will affect their awareness. 
I see and hear a change in the publics response to my VM over a 7 year period. 
They more often comment now - it doesn't use gas, its good for the environment, 
and its good for the health of the rider, etc.  

I am hearing more and more happy - I like what you are doing horn honks  -  from 
drivers. 

The publics environmental awareness is changing. We need a viable practical 
vehicle. 

It doesn't need all the wish list of advanced features. 

I designed my present VM 8 years ago coming from a long background with 
streamliners and the thrill of speed.
What's important to me now is weather protection (head in), light weight, quiet, 
ease of access to decent cargo space, some amount of suspension, small physical 
size for parking reasons. Aerodynamics is there but further down the list. 

This is accomplishable given what we know.  
In another 10 years more viable vehicles will be developed.  

.....Yes, but some method of sharing ideas is very important. Look at the 
advancements made after the birth of the IHPVA in 1975   - which eventually lead 
to present day Velomobiles. 


In some ways its less a technology issue than a change in consciousness as to 
why and how we use these vehicles. Requiring the wish list of advanced features 
hints of 19th and 20th century thinking where the Earths energy and resources 
were thought to be limitless. Efficiency - doing more with less - is the 21st 
century password. HPVs are up with the efficiency of railroad trains and super 
tankers.  


Notice for one how I have skirted the issue of funding. 

John Tetz 
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Re: Intellectual Property

JOHN TETZ — 2012-01-05T02:09:57

David Eggleston

Thank you for giving your experienced and wide ranging overview on various VM issues. Very valuable information.
I agree we have a lot yet to learn but we have accomplished a lot in these last 10 years of VM development.

......Too much of a range is asking a lot of a design, given the power source is so weak. Seems to me that honing a design for a specific area of need is more apt to be accomplished. Cars range from small to large with few to many features to accomplish various needs.

What I have set my sights on is a practical suburban human powered alternate transportation vehicle to be used by average folks to do their shopping and running errands in the 2 to 5 mile radius. Average speed 14 mph. These design limits give the opportunity to come up with a viable vehicle.

........How true this is. But I look at the fact that the bare trike business is booming. Although adding a shell of some kind may not be ideal it does change a trike into a vehicle, a vehicle that is first of all not seasonably limited, has weather protection, some crash protection, more visible to cars etc. This will change the consciousness of the trike rider into using the vehicle more as local alternate transportation rather than just recreation.

Second, by being seen by the public these vehicles will affect their awareness. I see and hear a change in the publics response to my VM over a 7 year period. They more often comment now - it doesn't use gas, its good for the environment, and its good for the health of the rider, etc.
I am hearing more and more happy - I like what you are doing horn honks - from drivers.
The publics environmental awareness is changing. We need a viable practical vehicle.
It doesn't need all the wish list of advanced features.

I designed my present VM 8 years ago coming from a long background with streamliners and the thrill of speed.
What's important to me now is weather protection (head in), light weight, quiet, ease of access to decent cargo space, some amount of suspension, small physical size for parking reasons. Aerodynamics is there but further down the list.
This is accomplishable given what we know.
In another 10 years more viable vehicles will be developed.

.....Yes, but some method of sharing ideas is very important. Look at the advancements made after the birth of the IHPVA in 1975 - which eventually lead to present day Velomobiles.

In some ways its less a technology issue than a change in consciousness as to why and how we use these vehicles. Requiring the wish list of advanced features hints of 19th and 20th century thinking where the Earths energy and resources were thought to be limitless. Efficiency - doing more with less - is the 21st century password. HPVs are up with the efficiency of railroad trains and super tankers.

Notice for one how I have skirted the issue of funding.

John Tetz
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Re: Velomobile design

Giles Puckett — 2012-01-08T02:24:38

I'd like it if there _were_ any companies to do lobbying here - people 
have tried to sell these things, but nobody lasts long in the business. 
They always seemed to be bickering, fragmented and demoralised.


When lawyers got involved, and if there was substantial damage or 
injury, you can bet the rules would change real quick.

G.


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Re: Velomobile design

Rob Hague — 2012-01-07T08:09:41

The liability costs following a collision could be a big problem though.
Rob

On 7 Jan 2012, at 02:58, David M. Eggleston wrote:


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Re: Velomobile design

David M. Eggleston — 2012-01-07T02:58:09

Hi Giles,

  You make a good point. We have the same problem in the States, although 
the Consumer Products Safety Commission allows up to 1 HP motors for assist, 
as long as the speed is limited to be less than or equal to 20 mph. That 
makes this a national standard. I believe this standard resulted from 
substantial lobbying by electric bike companies.
I understand that California allows motors up to 2 HP and speeds up to 30 
mph, although you need to have a driver's license to qualify. As a practical 
matter, no governmental bodies seem to be interested in enforcing these 
speeds or power levels, so they only have the effect of limiting what 
manufacturers can sell. Otherwise it is likely nobody would notice 
violations of this law unless lawyers got involved.

David

-----Original Message----- 
From: Giles Puckett
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:25 PM
To: David M. Eggleston ; velomobile< at >hupi.org
Subject: Re: [Velomobile] Velomobile design

On 4/01/2012 5:02 AM, David M. Eggleston wrote:
[lots of interesting stuff snipped]

Thanks David, I concur with all your points. There's one other that
might not be uppermost in the minds of people in the USA, but probably
more so in Europe and Australia: inconsistency of laws relating to
power-assist. Here in Australia we have a lot of hilly country, coupled
with brain-snappingly stupid power restrictions (now 200W peak - with
the possibility of 250W plus pedelec and speed limits soon!)

Any velo is so much heavier than a bicycle that it needs all the help it
can get uphill - that's where the average speed of any bicycle trip is
determined, so how much more so for a velo. My own homebuilt attempts at
streamlining certainly got me to the bottom of the next hill much
faster, which was fun as long as it lasted, but took me twice as long to
get up to the top again!

So lobbying for reasonable power limits and restrictions of these things
is paramount in places that limit them unreasonably. The present laws in
Oz seem to be specifically designed to prevent practical
car-alternatives from ever being built.

G.


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