http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general hourly 1 1901-01-01T00:00+00:00 http://gmane.org/img/gmane-25t.png http://gmane.org http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35839 <pre> On May 23, 2012, at 10:48 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: Sorry I didn't include this in my prior post but here you are making my point exactly. I participate in several other Apache projects. Wading through 1200+ emails per month that are largely Jira/Review noise makes it very difficult for me to find posts that have any value. As a consequence I am largely forced to simply delete everything generated by he Review tool and Jira. And I'm a mentor. I just don't see how newcomers are going to find this style welcoming. Ralph </pre> Ralph Goers 2012-05-24T06:18:51 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35838 <pre> On May 23, 2012, at 10:48 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: The team list is incorrect and is somewhat misleading. To my knowledge at least two "separate organizations" represented in that list are now employed by Cloudera. Others signed on when the project entered the incubator but have never participated. This all became clear to me during the last release vote when, as I recall, I cast the only binding vote that didn't come from a Cloudera employee. Ralph </pre> Ralph Goers 2012-05-24T06:14:10 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35837 <pre>On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Ralph Goers &lt;ralph.goers&lt; at &gt;dslextreme.com&gt; wrote: Hi Ralph, Benson, et. al., some background: Flume is similar to Hadoop and other related projects in that it is very jira heavy for development activity. No slouch in terms of mailing list traffic either though (1200 last month): http://flume.markmail.org/ Also note the extensive "new developer" type detail that's available on the web/wiki: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLUME/Index The team list can provide insight into the diversity issue http://incubator.apache.org/flume/team-list.html My understanding is that there are at least 4 separate organizations represented by active commiters. Regards, Patrick </pre> Patrick Hunt 2012-05-24T05:48:37 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35836 <pre> On May 23, 2012, at 10:15 PM, Benson Margulies wrote: I have reason to doubt the collaboration in the hallway aspect and I certainly do not doubt everyone's good intent. I'm not objecting to the collaboration style as an issue preventing graduation. I'm just saying I find it difficult to participate with that style and that simply makes me wonder if that is making it harder to attract new committers. I fully realize that that issue might just be with me, but the fact remains that there is practically no diversity in the project and I cannot in good conscience recommend graduation for a project in that situation. Ralph </pre> Ralph Goers 2012-05-24T05:36:23 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35835 <pre>On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:09 PM, Ralph Goers &lt;ralph.goers&lt; at &gt;dslextreme.com&gt; wrote: I don't follow flume, but I'd propose to soften your objection only slightly. I've met other groups of people who like a JIRA centric view of the world. I suspect that if they did a bunch of other good things called out below, you or others would find the JIRA business digestible. Also, on the other hand, I fear that the co-employed contributors are collaborating in the hallway, and the lack of the context in JIRA or on the list is contributing to the problem. </pre> Benson Margulies 2012-05-24T05:15:57 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35834 <pre>Right after I read Jukka's email that started this thread and I posted my reply and discovered to my shock that they had started a graduation vote. I am shocked because I have pointed out repeatedly the project's complete lack of diversity. Virtually all the active PMC members and committers work for the same employer. I have told them several times that I would actually like to participate in the project but the way the project works is very different then every other project I am involved with at the ASF and the barriers to figure out what is actually going on is very high. Almost nothing is discussed directly on the dev list - it is all done through Jira issues or the Review tool. While all the Jira issue updates and reviews are sent to the dev list most of that is just noise. Feel free to review the dev list archives to see what I am talking about. Needless to say, when the graduation proposal reaches this list, and I'm sure it will, I will strongly endorse the IPMC to reject the proposal. FWIW, I found the post below to be 100% on target. Ralph On May 23, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: </pre> Ralph Goers 2012-05-24T05:09:23 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35833 <pre> On May 23, 2012, at 10:11 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: Done. --kevan </pre> Kevan Miller 2012-05-24T03:08:03 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35832 <pre> Jukka's written on this subject multiple times in the past. Here are two gems, one from a while back, the other recent: http://markmail.org/message/o3gbgam4ny2upqte Most of the cases I've been involved so far of podlings in the "hoping some more people come along" have had symptoms of the project team not paying enough attention on making it easy for new contributors to show up and stick around. Things like complex and undocumented build steps, missing "Getting started" or "Getting involved" guides, lack of quick and positive feedback to newcomers, etc., are all too common. Fixing even just some of such things will dramatically increase the odds of new people showing up. Those are things that are very easy to overlook when you're working on your first open source projects (it took me years to learn those lessons), but we here have a massive amount of collective experience on such things. That's what we could and IMHO should be sharing with the podlings. That's what "mentoring" to me is about and that's where our most precious "added value" is. Otherwise incubation just boils down to an indoctrination period on how to apply and conform to the various Apache rules and policies. http://incubator.markmail.org/thread/qpzg6wdoq7cwko55 I've been involved with quite a few podlings with similar problems in attracting longer-term contributors. In my experience the best way to solve that problem is to change your mindset of expecting most such people to be just one-off contributors. If you instead treat them as your next new committers and engage with them as peers, many (though of course not all) will respond in kind and actually become more involved. Many developers, especially from commercial backgrounds, tend to treat such contributors as just users reporting a problem. A typical interaction goes like "What's the problem? Do you have a test case? OK, let me fix it (when I get around to it)." A better approach is something like "What's the problem? OK, here are some pointers to the relevant bits in code. How do you think this should be fixed?" Here's another tip I picked up from Joe Schaefer: when you're voting in a new committer and they have a big patch set sitting in the queue, hold off and let *them* commit it so that they get the satisfaction, the new experience, and the appreciation all at once. It would be nice if stuff like this was collected in "Steps to building a community" documentation somewhere, rather than scattered through the email archives. I suggest "Steps" as a format because different approaches are required at different phases of the project and sizes of the community. Marvin Humphrey </pre> Marvin Humphrey 2012-05-24T02:31:00 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35831 <pre>-kafka-private +kafka-dev +general Ahh, account was only created. According to root: Sorry about this confusion. I don't have the necessary karma and am so used to other mentors having it that I forgot that the above step needed to be done. Can someone in the IPMC perform the needful? Thanks! cc: incubator general Regards, Alan On May 23, 2012, at 6:40 PM, Joel Koshy wrote: </pre> Alan D. Cabrera 2012-05-24T02:11:13 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35830 <pre>[ ] +1, bring Crunch into Incubator On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Josh Wills &lt;jwills&lt; at &gt;cloudera.com&gt; wrote: </pre> Ahmed Radwan 2012-05-24T02:02:37 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35829 <pre>[x] +1, bring Crunch into Incubator (non-binding) Regards, Mike On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Josh Wills wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- codebase. jobs. ]] https://groups.google.com/a/cloudera.org/group/crunch-dev/topics|developer]] general-unsubscribe&lt; at &gt;incubator.apache.org) general-help&lt; at &gt;incubator.apache.org) </pre> Mike Percy 2012-05-24T01:33:02 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35828 <pre>Jukka, since the last report I have changed my opinion a bit and recommend you add Flume to the "low diversity" list. Ralph On May 23, 2012, at 4:28 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote: </pre> Ralph Goers 2012-05-24T01:06:34 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35827 <pre>Hi Jukka, I'm also concerned for S4 not having a release and low activity. I pinged them about cutting a release a couple months ago and they said they weren't ready. As for activity there is some mailing list traffic but almost no jira/commits listed in april/may. For Bigtop i've been tracking diversity. A couple weeks ago I reviewed their recent commits and didn't see anyone that might be a good fit for new committer. I know they are trying hard though hosting events, helping new contributors, etc... but so far diversity continues to be low. Perhaps someone will have some insight on how to gather new contributors that hasn't been tried yet? Patrick On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Jukka Zitting &lt;jukka.zitting&lt; at &gt;gmail.com&gt; wrote: </pre> Patrick Hunt 2012-05-24T00:36:18 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35826 <pre> Assuming the VOTE passes, I hope you'll still give the project a chance, Jakob. Given your rep around the ASF, if you contribute as you have to other projects yet your merit goes unrecognized, I suspect that the Crunch's Mentors are going to be asking questions. ;) Marvin Humphrey </pre> Marvin Humphrey 2012-05-23T23:54:53 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35825 <pre>Hi all, There's plenty of time still before the June reports [1] start flowing in. As an early remainder to podlings starting to draft their reports, here's how the IPMC saw your status as of the previous quarterly report in March [2]: IP clearance: Openmeetings No release: Bloodhound, Cordova, OpenOffice Low activity: Kalumet, Kato Low diversity: Bigtop, Etch, Isis, HCatalog, S4, Wave Ready to graduate: Flume Has the situation in your podling changed over the last three months? If not, what's your plan for improving the situation? Is there anything for which you'd appreciate more help? I'm especially worried about Kato as it seems like the project has more or less died even though the JSR 326 / Oracle trouble got finally sorted out. Is it time to retire the project or can we hope for a revival? I also wanted to start preparing for this reporting round in good time by assigning shepherds [3] already now. Using a fuzzy algorithm based on the available volunteers, their stated preferences, and the podlings they're already mentoring, I came up with the following initial assignments that I've also recorded on the wiki page: Benson Margulies - CloudStack, HCatalog, Kato Dave Fisher - Bloodhound, Flume Matt Franklin - Bigtop, Flex, Openmeetings Matt Hogstrom - Cordova, OpenOffice.org Jukka Zitting - Etch, Isis, S4 Mohammad Nour - Kalumet Ross Gardler - Wave Feel free to shuffle these around or ask for someone else to fill in if you're expecting to be too busy for the extra reviews in early June. Other IPMC members and interested observers, please jump in and volunteer as extra shepherds if you'd like to help this effort. As discussed earlier, shepherds are not there to replace existing mentors. If everything is going well with a project, the shepherd can simply acknowledge a report and move on. If there are any relevant questions that the report doesn't answer, the shepherd may ask the podling and its mentors for more details. And finally if something seems wrong, the shepherd should raise a flag for the mentors and the rest of the IPMC to focus on. Most importantly, we need to be talking *with* the podlings, not just *about* them, so especially any constructive and encouraging feedback to them will be highly useful. [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/June2012 [2] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/March2012 [3] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/IncubatorShepherds BR, Jukka Zitting </pre> Jukka Zitting 2012-05-23T23:28:18 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35824 <pre>[X] +1, bring Crunch into Incubator (non-binding) Thanks, Arvind Prabhakar On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Josh Wills &lt;jwills&lt; at &gt;cloudera.com&gt; wrote: </pre> Arvind Prabhakar 2012-05-23T22:25:42 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35823 <pre>+1 On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Patrick Hunt &lt;phunt&lt; at &gt;apache.org&gt; wrote: </pre> Edward J. Yoon 2012-05-23T22:20:04 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35822 <pre>+1 Patrick On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Alan D. Cabrera &lt;list&lt; at &gt;toolazydogs.com&gt; wrote: </pre> Patrick Hunt 2012-05-23T22:16:29 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35821 <pre>+1 Regards, Alan On May 23, 2012, at 11:45 AM, Josh Wills wrote: </pre> Alan D. Cabrera 2012-05-23T21:49:42 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35820 <pre> +1, bring Crunch into Incubator </pre> Luciano Resende 2012-05-23T21:35:16 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/35819 <pre> +1 (non-binding) +Vinod On May 23, 2012, at 11:45 AM, Josh Wills wrote: </pre> Vinod Kumar Vavilapalli 2012-05-23T21:34:06 Search the mailing list at Gmane query http://search.gmane.org/?group=$group=gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general