gmane.science.philosophy.peirce

Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Stephen C. Rose — 2013-05-24T18:53:05

It seems to me that Peirce opens the door to semiotics being stimulated by
anything that emerges in the mind as sign, word or idea and that literature
as well as experience of so-called lower beings, indeed anything that can
expand the access a mind has to reality, is fair fruit for becoming
articulated as a semiotic which I take to me a helpful map of the
permutations of signs as they pass from their original form to their
indexical articulation to their symbolic (I would say aesthetic) emergence
as actions which advance us.

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On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Mary Libertin <mary.libertin< at >gmail.com>wrote:


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Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Mary Libertin — 2013-05-24T18:42:05

Eugene and Peirce-listers,

The image of surfacing appears in some authors' descriptions of the
creative process, including Woolf and Joyce. To get to the larger
discussion, though, I think it would be interesting to investigate how
Hjelmslev used the term "passkey language" and relate it to our discussion.
I remember reflecting on the phrase "passkey language" (though I didn't use
it) in a paper I wrote 30 years ago on James Joyce's literature as a
semiotic system with a process (entelechy). I considered it as a
metasemiology based on Hjelmslev's _Prolegomena to a Theory of Language_ in
one of many permutations of study of Joyce. I currently don't have
Hjelmslev's books nearby, so I googled "passkey language" and found that
the first hit contained excellent material: G. Sonesson's "Methods and
Models in Pictorial Semiotics," Lund University, 1988, Report 3 from the
Project "Pictorial meanings in the society of information," which contains
the following use of the term: "... at the level of content, what Les

quincuncial projection, mapping, thinking and language

Stefan Berwing — 2013-05-24T14:46:26

Gary,

don't thank me. We have to thank a guy called Jason Davies based in 
London. He coded the projection.

Gary, List,

But there is something else that makes Peirce excursions into 
cartography interesting to me. In the last weeks i had some little 
clashes with my workgroup chief about the definition of milestones of a 
project of ours. These clashes made me reflect the way i think and work. 
I start with a short description of my working/thinking-technique to 
make my point at the end of this post.

When i begin with a new project i start with a empty powerpoint chart 
and scribble all terms - however vague they may be - that seem relevant 
to me on it. Afterwards i start to sort them so that i get some form of 
venn diagrams. It often happens at this step that i draw a line arround 
two terms and the emerging region has no "descriptor". The task is then 
to find a more general term to describe the content of the inner region. 
It also happens that i believe that there is something else, which is 
imor

RE: birdsong, language, etc.

Eugene Halton — 2013-05-24T14:39:26

Dear Ben, Michael, and Steven,
            If I remember Hartshorne’s work on birds, Ben, he also claims that it is expressive music. I will have to reread it though.
            Yes, some songbirds, parrots, and hummingbirds do learn new songs, and also can add arbitrary elements based on experience to their original songs. That would suggest variation, choice, and innovation and change.
            Here’s one brief abstract on bird learning and local bird dialects, Slater, Bird song learning: causes and consequences:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08927014.1989.9525529#.UZ5ZbJHYCSo

            And Moorman et al. discuss the interesting: “Human-like brain hemispheric dominance in birdsong learning”:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/07/12/1207207109
What is interesting to me in this is the way a very different brain develops brain areas similar to human language.

            And Jon Young has written an excellent book on what birds are saying. He began his studies learni

Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Gary Richmond — 2013-05-24T01:57:49

Stephen asked:


"Was Frank Lloyd Wright more talented than a termite?"


Answer: Yes. Talent is a human concept. 


Is the termite amazing (as so many creatures are in nature)?
Absolutely!. Is he an architect in the sense of consciously conceiving
his work, planning it, revising it, involving others in the creation of
the planned edifice, discussing it with them, revising his plans as he
speaks with engineers, etc.? He is not.


And I would very much doubt that your wife's beloved dog had the
mentality of a 4 year old (vets like to flatter their patrons) since a 4
year old is quite advanced in her language acquisition and usage by that
age. But a 2 year old--that I can kind of believe. 


Best,


Gary




Gary Richmond
Philosophy and Critical Thinking
Communication Studies
LaGuardia College of the City University of New York
E202-O
718 482-5700

*** *** *** ***
My dear wife tells me that when she surmised that her beloved dog had
the
mentality of a two year old the vet said more like a four year old.
Would

Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Gary Richmond — 2013-05-24T02:24:21

Well, Michael has written so much over the decades that I am not troubled
by what you perceive as a lack of evidence. If, as you say, Michael should
spend more more time in nature, you, Stephen should, perhaps, spend less
time at the zoo :-) [?]

But, as to the "blueprint" matter, I think I join you in taking the
mystical position, Semiosis. C.W. Spinks in *Peirce and Triadomania*,
 writes (202): "The principle of growth of principles is the substance of
"Evolutionary Love," and Tychasm and Anancasm provide The Way as much as
Agapasm (5.503) And Peirce would not even run from an implicit mysticism in
his semeiotic, for as he says. '*Therefore, if you ask me what part
Qualities can play in the economy of the universe, I shall reply that the
universe is a vast representamen, a great symbol of God's purpose, working
out its conclusions in living realities'."*

Although Spinks stops there, I think the remainder of the quotation is
worth pondering in the light of Michael's question (some of the following,
I think

Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Steven Ericsson-Zenith — 2013-05-24T02:14:24

I haven't heard Michael address the evidence one way or the other yet, certainly he has presented none in support of his position. I have read enough experimental reports to the contrary and have enough personal experience with animals that it would more than surprise me to find evidence or even plausible cause to the contrary. I have not spoken to one zoologist - or anyone else that works with animals, and I have spoken to many, who would take the position Michael takes.

It is not clear to me what "a kind of blueprint for the universe" would be unless it is the simple statement of nature's laws and principles (whatever they may be). There is yet the epistemic question, despite our achievements so far, as to whether the base distinction is accessible, let alone whether or not it is expressible in some language. I would, I suspect like you, take the mystical position (semeiosis).


Best regards,

Steven



On May 23, 2013, at 6:42 PM, Gary Richmond <gary.richmond< at >gmail.com> wrote:



-----------------------

Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Gary Richmond — 2013-05-24T01:59:41

Steven, list,

Animals have minds, they have remarkable intelligence, they communicate
exceedingly well (perhaps, in many ways, better than we do with our puny
languages, mathematics and so forth--although we can create such marvels as
the internet as a consequence of that unique feature of homo sapiens), they
'observe' something like diagrams (Ben has a nice hypothetical example of
dog diagram observation which I hope he'll share with us), they can and do
learn and learn well--what I do not see them having is language, and I find
Michael's arguments on this aspect of his question quite convincing.

Now, as to whether or not language constitutes a kind of blueprint for the
universe, well, that I'm not so sure of. Semiosis (and, if you care to make
the distinction, biosemiosis--but, I think, Steven, that you are right in*
 not*making that distinction) seems to me a much more likely place to look
for something like unto a blueprint.But I'm here to be proven wrong.

Best,


On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Stev

Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Robert Eckert — 2013-05-24T01:10:06

List,

Back when I was reading a lot about attempts to teach primates language, I would often think to myself about how bright the German Shepard/Husky mix dog I had from the time I was ten was. I have never known a primate, but Marty was very tuned in to human speech and could communicate pretty well with me. Marty was also a very good judge of human character.

I know there are now many studies showing just how much dogs do understand. Given the long history of their companionship with humans, this makes sense. Is their ability linguistic? 

This current debate here makes me think of the 1866 ban by the French Academy of Sciences on publications about the origin of human language. These questions of the origin and nature of language, human and other forms, are intractable. It seems they involve first principles, more matters of faith than reason. 

Robert Eckert

--- On Thu, 5/23/13, Gary Richmond <gary.richmond< at >gmail.com> wrote:

From: Gary Richmond <gary.richmond< at >gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] birdso

Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Stephen C. Rose — 2013-05-24T00:42:48

My dear wife tells me that when she surmised that her beloved dog had the
mentality of a two year old the vet said more like a four year old. Would
it be pertinent to ask at what age children can do one thing and another as
we compare ourselves to our ancestors. Would not CSP at least suggest the
connection is vague and hardly absolute. Was Frank Lloyd Wright more
talented than a termite? Best, S

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On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 7:48 PM, Gary Richmond <gary.richmond< at >gmail.com>wrote:


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Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Steven Ericsson-Zenith — 2013-05-24T00:28:24

And so, would you agree, that while their thoughts may indeed be limited and peculiarly characterized, they are thoughts none-the-less? That they must, in fact, possess the interpretant manifold (the third)?

Regards,

Steven



On May 23, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Steven Ericsson-Zenith <steven< at >iase.us> wrote:



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Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Gary Richmond — 2013-05-23T23:48:19

Steven,

I empathize with animals all too much, I think. When I was 7 or 8 I asked
for and was given a chameleon. When it died I was heart-broken and didn't
have a pet of my own (although my family had dogs) until I was in my 30's.
I truly mourned the loss of that little creature.

Finally, living alone after the break-up of a relationship, in my early
30's I bought a lovely canary who, because I was *totally* into Mozart at
the time (well, I still am) would serenade me with themes from the Mozart
piano concertos I was listening to (obsessively, over and over again). He
died, and I was heart-broken again. I haven't had a pet since--I haven't
had the heart to.

So, yes, I empathize with animals, while find conversing with them
extremely limited.

Best,

Gary

On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Steven Ericsson-Zenith <steven< at >iase.us>wrote:


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Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Steven Ericsson-Zenith — 2013-05-23T23:38:30

And so you can empathize with the joker, even if it is a bird ... :-)

Best regards,
Steven



On May 23, 2013, at 4:28 PM, Gary Richmond <gary.richmond< at >gmail.com> wrote:



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Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Gary Richmond — 2013-05-23T23:28:23

Steven apparently forget to hit the "reply to all" button and wrote me
off-list:

Many jokes have no punchline.

You do not feel your thoughts? There is no first in your third? Is such a
division possible? Logical? The categories are not separated as you
suggest.

Best regards,
Steven

and I replied

Steven,

I feel my thoughts, for sure. But my feelings aren't always rational,
aren't always thoughts at all.  A speck of dust strikes my eye and before I
can even think a thought (like,"what was that?," etc.), I feel the pain.
There is no thought in that. There are lazy meditative moments in days of
spring and summer when I approach something like a meditative state of
no-Mind,of having no thoughts, but only the pure please of feeling the sun
and soft breezes on my face as I sit in the park. But, I don't think "sun"
or "breeze". So, there is a first in my third for sure (I feel my
thoughts), but not necessarily a third in my first (except, of course, as a
kind of physiological habit--that's 3ns enough, alright,

Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Steven Ericsson-Zenith — 2013-05-23T23:00:11

Yes. They are recorded in Pepperberg's book on Alex, as I have mentioned before. Alex used known words to speak of objects and circumstances for which he had learned no terms - metaphor.

I do not have the book immediately at hand, but when I get time I will dig it out.

Best regards,
Steven



On May 23, 2013, at 3:30 PM, Michael Shapiro <pooyin< at >earthlink.net> wrote:



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Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Steven Ericsson-Zenith — 2013-05-23T22:54:48

Many jokes have no punchline. 

You do not feel your thoughts? There is no first in your third? Is such a division possible? Logical? The categories are not separated as you suggest. 

Best regards,
Steven


On May 23, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Gary Richmond <gary.richmond< at >gmail.com> wrote:



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Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Michael Shapiro — 2013-05-23T22:30:46

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Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Steven Ericsson-Zenith — 2013-05-23T22:10:20

Again Michael, what is the experimental evidence to support any of your assertions here? 

Meanwhile, there appears to be reported evidence to the contrary that you have not addressed. Pepperberg reports that Alex, the parrot, certainly exhibited choice in language usage. In addition, Alex exhibits both additive and culmulative usage. Alex also showed that birds can be adaptive and generative.

My own experience gives me sufficient cause to doubt these statements. Birds select various alarms when the local Hawks fly by, for example. "Watch out!" "Hawk near" "Hawk flying away" - I rely upon these signals myself while watching my chickens. And even my chickens appear to be selective in the sounds that they make. One likes banana, another doesn't - and they certainly are able to communicate the fact to me.

My advice, spend more time in nature.

"You would never persuade me that ... the canary bird that takes such delight in joking with me does not feel with me …" CP 1.314

Best regards,
Steven


On May 23,

Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Michael Shapiro — 2013-05-23T22:09:01

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Paul du Bois-Reymond

Benjamin Lee Buckley — 2013-05-23T20:52:54

Dear list,

I was wondering if anyone knew whether Peirce was influenced by German
mathematician, Paul du Bois-Reymond? Their theories seem to me to overlap
in several key places.

Any specific references Peirce makes about du Bois-Reymond (or vice versa)
would be particularly helpful.

Thanks!

Benjamin

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Re: birdsong, language, etc.

Gary Richmond — 2013-05-23T19:46:35

Michael, list,

I believe that something which might prove especially helpful in this
discussion would be your succinct definitions of a few of the terms and
expressions you're using. I imagine that I'm following you, for example, in
your comments on birdsong, and I think I may even be in agreement with
you--but I'm not certain. Most of us here are not linguists, while I--and
apparently quite a few others--consider you to be, along with Roman
Jakobson, at the forefront of what someone in a paper I recently took a
look at referred to as "the semiotization of linguistics" (or something
like that). As Ben wrote, you clearly bring a lot to the table.

In any event, would it be possible for you to offer the list your expert
definitions of additive and cumulative semiotic (again, I think I
understand what you're saying, but I'm not absolutely certain)?

Also, I think I understand what the expression "invariance under
transformation" means, but if you could explicate your usage that would
also be helpful.

Best,

G