http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl hourly 1 1901-01-01T00:00+00:00 http://gmane.org/img/gmane-25t.png http://gmane.org http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93248 <pre> I'm not sure, but I think from what I've read that "CARB compliant" means that they meet CARB standards for stationary emissions sources. They might also meet the standards for vehicle propulsion sources, but I think that those are stricter. They may also use different units - units per mile vs units per hour of operation, IIRC. However, I don't live in CA, so maybe someone more familiar with these regulations can comment. David Roden EVDL Administrator http://www.evdl.org/ </pre> EVDL Administrator 2013-06-20T02:53:08 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93247 <pre>The cells heat on both charge, and on discharge. (Ohmic heating has no polarity.) Again, no electrons are lost. They all go around the entire circuit without losing a single one. Each electron flips a chemical ion from one plate to the other plate through the electrolyte. With Li-Ion cells, unless the electron is forced to flip the wrong ion (like when you over charge, or over discharge and damage the battery,) there is a one-to-one ratio to the electron flow and the state of charge. Bill D. </pre> Bill Dube 2013-06-20T01:52:56 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93246 <pre>Hi Wayne, The motor appears to be very solid, but I'm having a lot of trouble with severe noise in the controller. I haven't had time to track down whether it is from the controller or the DC-DC, due to family illness taking my "spare" time. Now that things have settled at home, I hope to resolve that particular issue. Biggest complaint: motor is limited to 4000RPM, when it is rated to 5000RPM. Second complaint: getting support from the factory required having a friend in Shenzen bother the factory until they helped out. Third complaint: getting software to update/change parameters in the controller almost impossible. Except for another friend that provided me with a CD that has chinese software on it that *might* be able to help me. Again, untested due to time restrictions. So other than the fact I have no tach, no info from the controller, it's fine. :) Lots of torque, very responsive (unlike the factory). Cheers, Peter On 6/19/13 7:18 AM, Crash wrote: </pre> Peter C. Thompson 2013-06-20T01:48:11 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93245 <pre>Don, You are confusing charge with energy. That is what several have been trying to get across. Remember that power is the product of voltage and current. The energy, in this case, is the product of power and time. This is where the Watt-hour or kilowatt-hour comes from. Consider two ideal cells each with a capacity of 1Ah. One cell is a 1V cell and the other is a 2V cell. Hook these in series and you have a 3V battery. Suppose that the two cells are each at 0%SOC. Hook the battery to a powersupply and supply 1A of current at 3V for 1 hour. (I know that there has to be a voltage difference but bare with me for a moment.) During charging, 3V * 1A = 3W of power is being put into the battery pack. The first cell is receiving 1V * 1A = 1W of power and the second cell is receiving 2V * 1A = 2W of power. At the end of 1 hour each cell has received 1A * 1h = 1Ah of _charge_ but the first cell has received 1W * 1h = 1Wh of _energy_ and the second cell has received 2W * 1h = 2Wh of _energy_. The total energy into t</pre> David Nelson 2013-06-20T00:45:29 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93244 <pre>Don, Please read my explanation and pay attention to the fact that - the charger needs to provide a higher voltage (so, more energy) to feed power into the cell PLUS the internal resistance. - the discharge delivers LOWER voltage, due to the energy lost across the internal resistance, reducing the output voltage and thus the delivered power, due to the power lost in the internal resistance. The info that you are looking for is already in the answer I provided earlier. Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: CWater-TCA0oYQ56+zQT0dZR+AlfA&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -----Original Message----- From: ev-bounces-a2J0UUJ8RaK7TbgM5vRIOg&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org [mailto:ev-bounces-a2J0UUJ8RaK7TbgM5vRIOg&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Theoldcars-YDxpq3io04c&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 5:08 PM To: ev-a2J0UUJ8RaK7TbgM5vRIOg&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org Subject: [EVDL] Resistanc</pre> Cor van de Water 2013-06-20T00:11:37 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93243 <pre>It still does not answer or address where the energy comes from that was loss in raising the cell or cells with the higher resistance over ambient temperature. Yes the energy delivered to each cell in series is equal, but the loss of energy as heat is not. This would be on both charging and discharging. As an example NiMH cells in the past have a very high self discharge rate. You can charge up a pack and they lose energy while reaching a full charge. Cells that have higher resistance or are in a higher state of charge lose more energy as heat then the others. If you let the pack sit in a fully charged state they self discharge and the energy loss produces heat. Enough that it actually helps keep the pack warmer in the winter. Once a NiMH pack has reached a full charge the only way it will retain the same amount of energy is if you replace the energy lost as heat. Your saying "Still, if the heat does no damage and does not affect efficiency of accepting charge" It does affe</pre> Theoldcars-YDxpq3io04c< at >public.gmane.org 2013-06-20T00:07:54 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93242 <pre>I think the WA $100/yr EV road tax law was written poorly, and I do not see it being illegal to use its own flaws/loopholes against it. The idea of going in to change your vehicle type to hybrid by having a small genset on-board (making your EV now a serial hybrid) is not bad. After you get the DMV to change your vehicle type to hybrid, you can remove the genset and go back to driving in EV mode (no one is going to check on you). If anyone asks why your vehicle is listed as a hybrid, tell them the ice/genset is detachable, and you usually only use it for cross-country road-trips. But which genset would to be subject to smog laws. It would not have to be a large genset. It just needs enough kW capacity to power the level-1 on-board charger, or do a trickle charge to the pack, as there are likely no laws specifying how much a genset puts into a pack to qualify the vehicle as now a hybrid. If you got a smog-check letter, what gensets would pass their tests? At first I looked at gensets running off cleaner f</pre> Bruce EVangel Parmenter 2013-06-19T23:44:31 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93241 <pre>Here are a couple refs I found: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.04.204 which says simply: "Hybrid motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle that uses multiple power sources or fuel types for propulsion and meets the federal definition of a hybrid motor vehicle. And, from the IRS: http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Qualified-Alternative-Fuel-Motor-Vehicles-(QAF MV)-and--Heavy-Hybrid-Vehicles which says: ... Qualifying Alternative fuels include compressed natural gas, liquefied natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas, hydrogen and any liquid at least 85 percent of the volume of which consists of methanol... Dig hard - you might find a "better" federal definition :) Peri -----Original Message----- From: ev-bounces-a2J0UUJ8RaK7TbgM5vRIOg&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org [mailto:ev-bounces-a2J0UUJ8RaK7TbgM5vRIOg&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart Sent: 19 June, 2013 3:47 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo! Lawrence Winiarski powered a That's an in</pre> Peri Hartman 2013-06-19T22:53:21 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93240 <pre>When compiling the cells in battery packs, a couple of priority's come to mind that it seems people are forgetting. Most important is the size of connectors designed for the expectant current. Second is the overall weight which can be substantial. Using a 1.3ah cell would give you twice the weight when using a newer more expensive 2.6ah cell, totaling the same kwh. Tesla engineers said that I had a excellent design, even though I don have a EE degree. It is amazing what we can do if we really want to. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Did-Tesla-steal-my-battery-design-tp4663646p4663687.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. </pre> Cruisin 2013-06-19T22:51:12 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93239 <pre>Lawrence Winiarski That's an interesting angle. You'd have to read the law very carefully, to see what they define as a "hybrid". Maybe a little gasoline engine generator would qualify; maybe not. As Peri Hartman pointed out, it may then have to meet emissions standards. If you're lucky, they defined "hybrid" in such loose terms that you won't need an ICE to qualify. Maybe a battery-solar hybrid? Or a battery-human powered hybrid? :-) </pre> Lee Hart 2013-06-19T22:47:13 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93238 <pre>i am learing that the plate needs to be sent over and cut on a water jet its way faster and less stress the adapter plate is cut and ready the crank adapter has to be drilled and tapped yes i hope to be among the electrified soon Richard willis 519-896-3354 office rdw-LguSvbNYyqfP+xrKDtxacg&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org http://www.evalbum.com/4612 www.evareus.com </pre> R Willis 2013-06-19T21:27:59 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93237 <pre>Peter, I note from an earlier post that you were running a Greatland brushless motor and controller. I'm interested to hear how their products have performed assuming you have had some time running with them now. regards Wayne -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/914-Driving-Observations-tp4662838p4663676.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. </pre> Crash 2013-06-19T14:18:10 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93236 <pre> Tesla has quite a few patents regarding the design of their pack. This thread on TMC has details on a few: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/17456-Amazing-Core-Tesla-Battery-IP-18650-Cell Very few of them have much to do with the basics of assembling cells into a large pack, but rather how to do so as inexpensively as possible and how to do so while keeping the pack from blowing up show a cell or two explode. Most of the patents I've seen are rather non-obvious in nature. -Dave </pre> David Rees 2013-06-19T20:25:58 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93235 <pre>Extending the question a bit: If I went the route of small cap cells, I would think about optimizing the assembly. For example, I might design a parallel cell group to be comprised of stacking 10 cells sideways and spot welding two appropriately heavy gage copper strips to the cell ends with enough strip sticking above to be used a lugs - this would amount to something looking like: + + | | |xxxx| |xxxx| |xxxx| |xxxx| |xxxx| |xxxx| |xxxx| |xxxx| |xxxx| |xxxx| where "xxxx" are the cells and the + at the top are the lugs (or bolt holes, perhaps). Then these groups could be packed in U shaped troughs and wired togehher with short bands of copper screwed to the lugs, and group bms' added. Considering this kind of design, a lot of work could be optimized. I think the assembly labor would be greatly reduced. It just might be enough savings to justify using small lower cost cells. Or maybe I'm just repeating the obvious :) Peri -----Original Message-</pre> Peri Hartman 2013-06-19T16:25:25 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93234 <pre>I have been following this thread (as best I could), and thinking to ask what hoegberg posted (see below). Your answer (in hindsight below) that you would use larger capacity cells, gave me my answer. Please allow me to ask other questions along the same lines. After having gone through all the planning, designing, welding, and implementation ? - At what point would the cost differential have to be between deciding to -pay a higher price for larger capacity cells, -over using a lot of lower cost smaller capacity cells in a series-parallel pack configuration? [Picking an Ah number out of no where] I mean if four 10Ah cells cost less than one 40Ah cell, ? how much less would it need to be to be worth all the additional cost of connecting them, your time spent planning, designing, and welding them all together ? I ask this, because someone either lurking now, or reading this thread later will have the thought of going cheap by using a lot of lower cost cells over paying a high price for fewer larger capac</pre> Bruce EVangel Parmenter 2013-06-19T16:03:02 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93233 <pre>I doubt that would get you very far. Then you would have to deal with emissions, which a small generator would surely fail. Sorry. Peri -----Original Message----- From: ev-bounces-a2J0UUJ8RaK7TbgM5vRIOg&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org [mailto:ev-bounces-a2J0UUJ8RaK7TbgM5vRIOg&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Winiarski Sent: 19 June, 2013 8:04 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo! If they want to play by the letter of the law, then buy a little gas powered generator (less than $100) and put it in the seat, then re-register it as a hybrid. (i.e. no special tax for hybrids) ________________________________ From: David Nelson &lt;gizmoev-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org&gt; To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List &lt;ev-a2J0UUJ8RaK7TbgM5vRIOg&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo! Well I finally found the original bill at http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2011-1</pre> Peri Hartman 2013-06-19T15:14:59 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93232 <pre>If they want to play by the letter of the law, then buy a little gas powered generator (less than $100) and put it in the seat, then re-register it as a hybrid. (i.e. no special tax for hybrids) ________________________________ From: David Nelson &lt;gizmoev-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org&gt; To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List &lt;ev-a2J0UUJ8RaK7TbgM5vRIOg&lt; at &gt;public.gmane.org&gt; Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo! Well I finally found the original bill at http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2011-12/Pdf/Bills/Session%20Laws/House/2660.SL.pdf. Unfortunately it very broadly defines an electric vehicle subject to the $100 annual fee as "A vehicle that is designed to have the capability to drive at a speed of more than thirty-five miles per hour;". Notice that it doesn't have to be able to go over 35mph, only that it is designed to have the capability to go over 35mph. Well the original design of the Gizmo states 40mph as top speed. I hav</pre> Lawrence Winiarski 2013-06-19T15:03:52 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93231 <pre>If I did it today, I would shoot for a larger pack using cells with more capacity that are now available, like Tesla uses. probably best to go with CALB and be done with it. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Did-Tesla-steal-my-battery-design-tp4663646p4663679.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. </pre> Cruisin 2013-06-19T15:00:16 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93230 <pre>---------------------------------------- </pre> Hoegberg . 2013-06-19T14:29:14 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93229 <pre>So, what DID happen then, lately?  To your mind. :-) why so angry? But again, please talk a bit about the _very_ cool project/s, I find the concept and also the Beetle conversion very interesting as I will try to do something simmilar whan I can afford it, and would love to se/hear more from you about the car and the experience you have soo far. I you had to do it again today, would you go for less power and a smaller pack? Someone else might find it interesting that the cost of 18650 170Wh/kg cells in 2002-2003 was about $260/kWh in high volume buy, if I remember it correct now..  /John ---------------------------------------- </pre> Hoegberg . 2013-06-19T14:25:25 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl/93228 <pre> Matthew Parkhouse, RN hobomatt&lt; at &gt; aol.com On 19 Jun 2556 BE, at 01:15, brucedp5 &lt;brucedp5&lt; at &gt;operamail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) </pre> Matthew Park house 2013-06-19T14:01:39 Search the mailing list at Gmane query http://search.gmane.org/?group=$group=gmane.recreation.cars.evdl