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Re: [GNHLUG] ManchLUG: Tuesday May 21st < at > The FARM in Manchester, NH

kenta — 2013-05-20T23:16:46

Reminder for tomorrow night's ManchLUG meeting. Hope to see you there!

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:48 PM, kenta <kenta.koga-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:
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Re: gps recommendations?

Jerry Feldman — 2013-05-20T19:53:01

Computers are smarter than you because the programmers are!!!
My older NAV system had a few quirks.
Here is the way to my old work location:
North on I95, right turn onto exit 22, bear right, take left into office 
complex after passing Riverside T station.

My older NAV was:
North on I95, right turn onto exit 22, bear left onto Grove St. 
(crossing over I95)
Take second right onto Pierrenpont Rd, Right onto Crehore Dr, Right onto 
Deforest Rd, then left back onto Grove St.(crossing back over I95 
again).then left into office complex.

Well, printed maps can also be wrong. I let a flight of Hueys right down 
the centerline of CamRahn AFB because it was not marked correctly on my map.

The bottom line is not to let the GPS or map lead you the wrong way.

Re: gps recommendations?

Tyson Sawyer — 2013-05-20T16:14:09

...and also with Open Street Maps Android (OSMAnd)

--
Tyson D Sawyer

A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent
of many bad measures.   - Daniel Webster

Re: gps recommendations?

Jerry Feldman — 2013-05-20T15:10:46

The advantages of Garmin, Magellan, and TomTom is that your maps are 
loaded for the whole country.. But, with Google Maps, you canpre load 
maps in the cache.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14zoQFZZm8s
http://www.androidpit.com/Google-Maps-Update-Brings-Offline-Navigation-to-the-Mix

So, Tom, You can preload Google maps.

WRT: Universal wifi. Today wifi (both 802.11xxx) and cell (3G, 4G, LTE 
...) are short range and would require towers. It would be nice to have 
a free satellite link, but that is not going to happen. But, with 
today's smartphones, you should be able to load most of the maps you 
need. I'm not sure if you can configure Google Maps to use cache or maps 
on the SD card.

One advantage of smartphone based maps is that locations can be derived 
from the cell tower, so if GPS is unavailable, you will triangulate off 
of the towers.

On 05/20/2013 09:20 AM, Tom Buskey wrote:

Re: gps recommendations?

David Rysdam — 2013-05-20T14:40:56

No, I think that's the exact opposite of what I want. I'm tired of
computers in general thinking they know what I want better than I do. I
want one that will do the task I give it and nothing else and I don't
want to have to pander to the device to give it that task.

"Here are the roads I want to drive on. Make sure I don't miss
them. Make sure I get from one to another correctly, even in case of
detours. Give me ETAs."

Re: gps recommendations?

Tyson Sawyer — 2013-05-20T13:44:23

A Nexus 7 is larger yet and IMHO the price is quite good for the tool
you get.  No cellular data, but I'm not sure that is wanted here.


OSMAnd (Open Street Map Android) had gotten to be pretty darn good,
open source and does a very good job of storing vector data locally
and route planning.   They do charge a small fee for the "plus"
version that helps support development.  I paid it even though the
limits on the "free" version didn't impact me.

It seems that the OP is coming close to asking for a nav system that
knows what he wants better than he does. ;-)

My solution to this (and I LOVE to try alternate routes and see other
"stuff") is to set the destination and then divert for the suggested
route.  ...the app just reroutes from where ever I take it.

I've not needed to try this, but I believe that one can also insert
intermediate points on the route.

So, not exactly what was asked for, but I believe that I'm achieving a
very similar mission this way.

Cheers!
Ty


--
Tyson D Sawyer

A strong convict

Re: gps recommendations?

Mark Komarinski — 2013-05-20T13:30:27

Google Maps has an offline mode.  You can download up to 6 100MB blocks 
(2 is enough to cover all of VT to the street level)

http://www.phonearena.com/news/Google-Maps-update-that-brings-offline-mode-now-live-in-the-Play-Store_id31697

Re: gps recommendations?

Tom Buskey — 2013-05-20T13:20:31

FWIW, I have a garmin.  I set the destination, then I add destinations as
vias working backwards from the destination.  This lets me force the GPS
route on the fly & get an estimate of how long it will take.

I have to go fairly close past the vias or the GPS will try to get me to
turn around.  Then I cancel and redo my route.

Lifetime updates are worth getting.  I like that my GPS works w/o cell
towers (I go into rural VT/NH sometimes).

If Google could come up with Google Maps that functions w/o internet
access, it'd be way better then a GPS IMO.  I think Google would be more
likely to build universal WiFi though.


On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 7:21 AM, Jerry Feldman <gaf-mNDKBlG2WHs< at >public.gmane.org> wrote:

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Re: Smarthosting (Sending mail through Google) with Postfix

Joshua Judson Rosen — 2013-05-19T15:58:51

It's been a while since I did this, but, if I recall correctly, Debian
generates a `snakeoil' key+certificate when the "ssl-cert" package
is installed, and other packages that want a key and/or certificate
(like Postfix) Depend on the ssl-cert package and just use its
`snakeoil' by default until the sysadmin goes in and reconfigures them
to use something better.

cf. /var/lib/dpkg/info/ssl-cert.postinst and /etc/postfix/main.cf.

Re: gps recommendations?

Jerry Feldman — 2013-05-19T11:21:47

One feature that I was not able to get working on the Android version of 
Google Maps is route manipulation by moving the lines like you can on 
the web version. The advantages of a commercial GPS system, like TomTom 
is the screen size. Also, your maps are all preloaded. In a smartphone, 
your maps are loaded via your data connection, but there is a way to 
preload your maps before going into an area where you may not have wifi. 
It depends on your cache size. Also look at mapdroyd. I once compared 
Google Maps nav with Lexus nav, and I preferred the Google Maps route.

On 05/18/2013 07:44 PM, Mac wrote:

Re: gps recommendations?

David Rysdam — 2013-05-18T18:14:07

Yeah, at one point I was going to say "What I want is Google Maps, but
in portable form". That's not exactly true, but closer than what I have
now. Maybe I need to get an smartphone. But it seems like if this
functionality can exist in a phone, it can exist in a GPS. Or maybe the
crucial factor is the internet access, in which case a smartphone
wouldn't help me either (since I wouldn't always be in a coverage area).

Re: gps recommendations?

Jerry Feldman — 2013-05-18T18:03:23

You can to that with Google Maps. I'm not sure exactly what you want to 
do, but it is much more flexible than the standard GPS.

Re: gps recommendations?

David Rysdam — 2013-05-18T17:46:53

I saw that. It's possible that it might function the way you suspect in
some cases. However, having had some inexplicable (and some
explicable-by-positing-the-GPS-is-dumb) experiences, I suspect what
would frequently happen is a route that did NOT include that edge,
except for the one point I happened to stick on there. I.e.

1) a completely unexpected route
2) get on an entrance ramp to My Chosen Highway
3) drive past the point
4) take the next exit
5) continue on with GPS's idea of what I want

This is "easily" solvable by putting more points on My Chosen
Highway...for someone with infinite patience in trying to trick software
into doing the right thing. From the volume of responses I've gotten
telling me about wayPOINTS, routePOINTS, and POINTS-of-interest, I must
be the only one who wants a feature that lets me input *lines*.

Re: gps recommendations?

Joshua Judson Rosen — 2013-05-18T15:49:21

I think the point of Tilmann's notes in the FoxtrotGPS manual is that
`the vertices *are* the edges', e.g.:

    * Do not set your waypoints on crossings. Instead, set them on the
      road between crossings.

(and, now I notice that we should probably change those notes to ay
 "routepoint" rather than "waypoint"...)

From what I've read about satnav units that support creating routepoints
offline, using just the software *on the device*, it seems like their
UIs typically do have that klunky worldview that the only routepoints
you'd be interested in setting are waypoints/POI where you'll want to
stop (and visit, and re-visit--some of them actually appear to require
that you save a waypoint into the POI database and then pull it up via
search before you can set a route through it...).

Even if you can't find an off-the-shelf satnav unit that does interactive
routeplanning straightforwardly like you want (like Tilmann's feature
in FoxtrotGPS does, I think), or a `handheld GNU/Linux super-satnav'
device, you

Re: gps recommendations?

Joshua Judson Rosen — 2013-05-18T15:31:00

I was somewhat surprised, when my wife got a TomTom unit, and I went
searching for a way to update its maps using Debian (or any other
Linux system), that all I was able to find was (lots of) advice on
how to *install Debian onto the TomTom unit*. That was a couple of
years ago....

As a general principle, though: if you can just use something running
a normal GNU/Linux distribution (possibly with a real, dedicated
*GPS receiver*--as opposed to a GPS navigator--attached via USB
or bluetooth), then there are a bunch of different options that
open up, e.g.: these days, I carry a WBT-202 `GPS data-logger' with me
and run FoxtrotGPS on my laptop. If I get lost, I turn the laptop
on, the track from the WBT-202 to see where I've been, look at
the `you are here' marker to see where I *am*, possibly draw out
a route that I want to follow, and then resume travel with my 14-inch
`map with a route and a live you-are-here dot' riding passenger.

I seem to recall you having a Nokia tablet that ran Maemo or something;
th

Re: gps recommendations?

David Rysdam — 2013-05-18T14:53:38

Didn't even occur to me. I'll try that. Could work for longer, planned
trips.

But there are also times I'm already in the car or away from home and
want to plan a shorter trip with constraints other than the very
simplistic ones provided (binary decisions on toll roads, etc).

I wonder if there are any firmware replacements that could convert a
typical GPS into a power GPS, a la CHDK for Canon cameras or rockbox for
mp3 players.

Re: gps recommendations?

Jerry Feldman — 2013-05-18T13:13:02

While I use the GPS built into my car, I can easily set up routepoints 
or waypoints. For instance, I usually set my GPS even for places like 
work, mainly so I can see both driving time and traffic conditions. When 
I go to my Sunday breakfast in South Boston, I set up a waypoint (or 
destination) so that my GPS takes me onto the Big Dig rather than 
Huntington Avenue.

However, I have found that Google Maps has an excellent turn-by-turn nav 
feature. The strong point is that your maps are usually quite up to 
date, but the weak point is that when you are out of range you won't be 
able to download any mapping data.

The commercial GPS systems each have some good features. Garmin, 
Magellan, and TomTom are probably among the best. I've used both Garmin 
and Magellan and have relatively few complaints. Some of these units 
work well as an auto nav unit and also as a walking nav unit, although 
nearly any smartphone gives you that also. The main issue with all nav 
units is map updating. Some units don't give

Re: gps recommendations?

Jeffry Smith — 2013-05-18T12:08:39


First thing to realize - GPS is not making opaque decisions, in fact GPS is
not making any decisions.  The provider of your GPS device is.  I say that
because GPS system itself does NOT do any of the navigation - it simply
provides the navigation beacons used by your device to navigate (
http://www.gps.gov/support/user/mapfix/ for details).   What you're looking
for is the provider of the navigation services that uses GPS to provide you
the desired mapping/route planning.



All of which is route planning - which is a category of software
application.

Google Maps has some of this, in that you can specify "toll roads" or "no
toll roads," ask for alternate paths, specify whether you're using car,
bus, foot, or bike.  It's not perfect (it's either "toll roads" or "no toll
roads," but not the option to specify "no toll roads except this one."



Have you done an open source search for "route planning software?" (to
bring it into the Linux/FLOSS theme of the list)?
_____________________________________________

Re: gps recommendations?

David Rysdam — 2013-05-18T09:57:13

Well, this is helpful, unhelpful and then helpfully unhelpful.

Helpful: Those are indeed some good terms to use to find other people
who want the same thing.

Unhelpful: But the proposed solutions are still planning routes by
constraining vertices, not edges.

Helpfully unhelpful: But maybe what this proves is that no GPS has ever
heard "it's the journey, not the destination".

Re: gps recommendations?

Joshua Judson Rosen — 2013-05-18T03:38:28

[...]

"Waypoints" doesn't *necessarily* mean "landmarks", though....

The term you actually want is "routepoint", but there's a fair amount
of confusion spread around about whether "waypoint" means "routepoint"
or "point of interest"/"landmark", and people/companies often say/write
one thing when they mean the other (it's like trying to find fettuccine
recipes on the WWW--you first need to guess which mis-spelling of
"fettuccine" people are likely to use...).

Actually, the term you *really* want (for the feature you want)
is "route-planning", or possibly "interactive route-planning"
(as opposed to "route-finding"). And, now that I mention that,
I seem to remember a discussion on *another* mailing list that we
were both on, a few years ago, about how someone was `looking for
a GPS unit that supports route-planning' and there was a bout of
`route-planning vs. route-finding' confusion/discourse that ensued....

Someone wrote a chapter for the FoxtrotGPS manual specifically about this,
including some perhaps n

gps recommendations?

David Rysdam — 2013-05-18T01:18:45

My GPS is dying. I'm looking for a replacement, but I want a
particular..."mindset" is probably a better word than "feature".

On a recent long-distance car trip, I found the GPS making opaque
decisions. For instance, it has a route. I take an unplanned exit for
gas and when I get back on, and the GPS has "recalculating"'d several
times, the route is different. Why? I'm exactly where I was before and
the destination is the same. No clue and no way to find out. 

Similarly, I often find that "fastest" and "shortest" are not the only
optimization strategies I could wish for. How about "any route using/not
using road X" or "no tolls, except for this one because it saves 4
hours"? Or "no 'highways' but also don't take me down all these back
country, one-lane roads".

Basically, I find that when I use the GPS, it's the brains and I'm just
the car operator. I want to be the brains and the operator and have the
GPS be navigator. I decide a route (or the backbone of one) and it keeps
me on it.

Does this exist? I kn