gmane.culture.transportation.humanpowered.velomobile

Re: Twike

JOHN TETZ — 2012-01-13T03:27:33

Frederik wrote;

Pedal power is mostly an exercise gimmick as it represents maybe 5% of the total available power. 


That is exactly what I wanted to say. You said it more elegantly than I would have. 
To me having a vehicle that can be moved mostly by human power is elegant.  

John   100 watt 4.3 pound assist  Tetz 
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Re: Twike

Frederik Van De Walle — 2012-01-12T23:48:04

Not a velomobile in my eyes. A velomobile in my opinion is defined by the requirements of human power. With electrical assist, power levels should remain within human power magnitudes to remain a velomobile. When the electric engine becomes stronger, it starts to dominate the character of the vehicle. You become dependent on it. Before you know it, you end up with a motor vehicle. Such is the case with the Twike, it started as a too big, heavy and slow hpv and found its purposes as a little efficient motor vehicle before its time. Vehicle weight is light for a car, but very heavy if one would count it as a velomobile. Pedal power is mostly an exercise gimmick as it represents maybe 5% of the total available power. 

If this kind of electrical vehicle is of interest, also have a look at the coming Renault Twizy. A little light electrical commuter vehicle that is both likable, practical in town and that will be relatively very cheap.

/Frederik 
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Re: Velomobile Digest, Vol 57, Issue 10

Ladislav Blaha — 2012-01-12T17:29:01

If you read info about twike carefully, you find that you could not be 
able to ride one without electric assist. Its electric car with pedals. 
Many  users confirm same info. I do not consider it as velomobile.
Ladia
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Twike price

Paolo Bartoli — 2012-01-11T17:44:27

Found some price informations on Twike website, not a cheap choice!


Prices 2010
TWIKE Easy from 16.590,- (excluded batteries)
TWIKE Activefrom 17.190,- (excluded batteries)

Batteries
Range 60-80 kmLi-Ion 9,6 Ah€ 5.976,-
Range 90-110 kmLi-Ion 14,4 Ah€ 8.964,-
Range 120-150 kmLi-Ion 19,2 Ah€ 11.952,-
Range 160-200 kmLi-Ion 24,0 Ah€ 14.940,-

All prices are including VAT and excluding Dutch registration and delivery costs.


Paolo Bartoli, Monza Italy
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Twike is a velomobile?

Paolo Bartoli — 2012-01-11T17:40:13

Hello,
would you consider the Twike still a velomobile? http://www.twike.com/en/home/home.html

It has many of the features that we're talking about. Of course it is much wider that conventional velomobiles, but I think that right now we're talking of something like an evolution of the velomobile typology, closer to a full-featured vehicle regarding safety etc.
On their website you can read they sold 900 units in 10 years, around 90/year.

BTW, I have no idea of the Twike price… Anyone?

Paolo Bartoli, Monza Italy
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Re: Velomobile design

2012-01-11T00:47:11

Hi Everyone,
  I joined this list years ago hoping to get inspired into building a velomobile.  Young children, landscaping and an unenthusiastic wife have gotten in the way.  So I still have a trike aero shell hanging in my garage but no trike or progress.  I am not sure if I will be able to contribute this list but I'll throw some requirements for the sort of velo I'd like.

1. Cost: Under $5k.  Rotovelo comes close but has other down sides. I will have to buy a second car soon which will be about $10k, travel 5k km a year and cost 4k a year in parts and depreciation.  However the benefits are well known and shareable.  I currently have 12k km up on my bike over 12 years however a good velomobile might see 5-10k km a year.  Considering a suspended trike costs about $5k this price maybe too optimistic.

2. Speed: 32km/h. Current commute is 35minutes at 22km/h on the bike.  Speed increases versatility.  Lifting the average speed to 32km/h (20mph) would cut commute to 25minutes.  Interestingly if my commute h

Re: Velomobile design

Giles Puckett — 2012-01-08T02:24:38

I'd like it if there _were_ any companies to do lobbying here - people 
have tried to sell these things, but nobody lasts long in the business. 
They always seemed to be bickering, fragmented and demoralised.


When lawyers got involved, and if there was substantial damage or 
injury, you can bet the rules would change real quick.

G.


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Re: Velomobile design

Rob Hague — 2012-01-07T08:09:41

The liability costs following a collision could be a big problem though.
Rob

On 7 Jan 2012, at 02:58, David M. Eggleston wrote:


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Re: Velomobile design

David M. Eggleston — 2012-01-07T02:58:09

Hi Giles,

  You make a good point. We have the same problem in the States, although 
the Consumer Products Safety Commission allows up to 1 HP motors for assist, 
as long as the speed is limited to be less than or equal to 20 mph. That 
makes this a national standard. I believe this standard resulted from 
substantial lobbying by electric bike companies.
I understand that California allows motors up to 2 HP and speeds up to 30 
mph, although you need to have a driver's license to qualify. As a practical 
matter, no governmental bodies seem to be interested in enforcing these 
speeds or power levels, so they only have the effect of limiting what 
manufacturers can sell. Otherwise it is likely nobody would notice 
violations of this law unless lawyers got involved.

David

-----Original Message----- 
From: Giles Puckett
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:25 PM
To: David M. Eggleston ; velomobile< at >hupi.org
Subject: Re: [Velomobile] Velomobile design

On 4/01/2012 5:02 AM, David M. Eggleston wrote:
[lots of intere

Re: Velomobile design

Giles Puckett — 2012-01-07T01:25:15

[lots of interesting stuff snipped]

Thanks David, I concur with all your points. There's one other that 
might not be uppermost in the minds of people in the USA, but probably 
more so in Europe and Australia: inconsistency of laws relating to 
power-assist. Here in Australia we have a lot of hilly country, coupled 
with brain-snappingly stupid power restrictions (now 200W peak - with 
the possibility of 250W plus pedelec and speed limits soon!)

Any velo is so much heavier than a bicycle that it needs all the help it 
can get uphill - that's where the average speed of any bicycle trip is 
determined, so how much more so for a velo. My own homebuilt attempts at 
streamlining certainly got me to the bottom of the next hill much 
faster, which was fun as long as it lasted, but took me twice as long to 
get up to the top again!

So lobbying for reasonable power limits and restrictions of these things 
is paramount in places that limit them unreasonably. The present laws in 
Oz seem to be specifically designed

Paths to future velos

David M. Eggleston — 2012-01-06T17:10:40

Hi John,

Thanks for your detailed reply. It is good to be back in contact with you. In view of your long experience and accomplishments I place a high value on what you say. And we old farts need to stick together!

David

From: JOHN TETZ 
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 8:04 PM
To: David M. Eggleston 
Subject: Re: [Velomobile] Velomobile design

David Eggleston

Thank you for giving your experienced and wide ranging overview on various VM issues. Very valuable information. 
I agree we have a lot yet to learn but we have accomplished a lot in these last 10 years of VM development.

......Too much of a range is asking a lot of a design, given the power source is so weak. Seems to me that honing a design for a specific area of need is more apt to be accomplished. Cars range from small to large with few to many features to accomplish various needs.

   I admit to being a fan of VM.nl and their design and manufacturing work. In the Quest and Mango (and now Strada) they have all-around velos that do well in ma

Re: Affordable velomobiles

JOHN TETZ — 2012-01-06T02:41:33

Terry wrote;

........Adding a shell on a vehicle that wasn't designed for a shell often has some disadvantages such as the seat being too reclined etc. I would like to see a couple of trike manufactures build a trike layout that is compatible for adding a shell (not a big deal). Then homebuilders could experiment with building their own shells - and we all learn in the process. 

....I have small motion suspension and it does a reasonable job and it only adds about a pound for the two front wheels. I also have been running the fat Primo Comets for years. With their thin sidewalls they give the smoothest ride and great acceleration. Big Apples ride a bit harsher but acceptable.  I run the Comets at 60 psi

....I case you don't know I built a E assist that does a fair job of taking he sting out of the hills and only weighs 4.3 pounds. 

......I feel it doable. My foam shell weighs 7 pounds and I would think it could be manufactured fairly low cost. But the major problem is getting acceptance of foam. That's t

Re: Affordable velomobiles

Chris Jordan — 2012-01-05T23:59:22

I built also mainly because of price (however I far exceeded final total cost of a factory-built VM in 6 years).  Many are pretty and sleek but just totally impossible to get into/out of. Keeping that in mind would be very important to at least 1/3 of interested VM buyers.    I cut 2 side doors in my $3000. streamliner shell for my use.  I sure enjoyed Davids comments-  I built mine for flat out speed, thinking that was of utmost importance.  Vibration and noise were very small problems to me and were pretty much solved adding 9 sq ft. of insulation and foam padding, overpadding the seat and using foam and "real"rubber on every single joint, finally using fatter tires.  It was 110 pounds in 2010 (77 pounds in 2005). 

 What killed it WAS speed.  I could use that motor (added in 2007) and get 35 mph easily on the flat, but when I added gravity (a long hill with new asphalt) for the first and last time that was my zenith!  50 mph watching the blur and listening only to the wind 'whoosh' was way too

Re: Affordable velomobiles

Rob Hague — 2012-01-05T19:08:52

Nick - breakdown (including depreciation for different original purchase price cars and for different annual mileages) in the link I included.
Some of the costs are frightening and make velos - even the most expensive ones - look like bargains!

Rob


On 5 Jan 2012, at 18:56, Nickolas Hein wrote:


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Re: Affordable velomobiles

Nickolas Hein — 2012-01-05T18:56:14

Rob, et al,
I was just about to comment on that.  The objection isn't really to the
cost of the velomobile but to the value since most prospective buyers don't
know the cost.  You may buy a car for $10K USD, but you'll spend about the
same amount every year to fuel, maintain, insure it (and then there's
depreciation - the biggest cost and something you don't even get anything
for).  A few years ago I remember someone sharing a study that showed all
the costs for comparison.  Does anyone still have a link to it?
Thanks,
Nick Hein
Morgantown, WV

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Rob Hague <rob< at >wrhpv.com> wrote:

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Re: Affordable velomobiles

Rob Hague — 2012-01-05T17:19:12

And the response to "I could buy a car for that" is "... and what is the total cost of ownership for that car?" - how much per year does it *really* cost you?

The Automobile Association here in the UK claim that an average car costs 45p (92.5 US cents) per mile all in. Note that these figures do not include the additional cost of gym membership that may then be necessary to address the sedentary lifestyle of the car driver.
(http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/advice/advice_rcosts_petrol_table.jsp)

That is looking almost break-even on a new 'standard' velomobile each year :)

Rob


On 5 Jan 2012, at 15:43, Terry Rouse wrote:


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Affordable velomobiles

Terry Rouse — 2012-01-05T15:43:51

I agree with most of what John says. I have gotten a lot of favorable responses 
from motorists as I cruise about in my homemade velomobile. And a lot of 
questions from interested persons. The biggest hurdle for many folks and the 
reason I made my own is cost. When I tell people what a commercial velomobile 
would cost the typical response is, "I could buy a car for that". The cost has 
to come down for these to become practical transportation. For several years I 
rode a Catrike Speed to which I added a body. My main objections to it were the 
harsh ride and lack of good road hazard vision due to the body and reclined 
position. There has been a resurgence of single speed bikes around here and I 
suspect that is mostly due to the simplicity of the design. It is very hilly 
here and I can't imagine why anyone would want to pedal up some of our hills, 
but they are doing it. So in short I think the KISS principle applies here. Keep 
it simple stupid. My current homemade velomobile has a small amount of 
sus

Re: Intellectual Property

JOHN TETZ — 2012-01-05T02:09:57

David Eggleston 

Thank you for giving your experienced and wide ranging overview on various VM issues. Very valuable information. 
I agree we have a lot yet to learn but we have accomplished a lot in these last 10 years of VM development. 

......Too much of a range is asking a lot of a design, given the power source is so weak. Seems to me that honing a design for a specific area of need is more apt to be accomplished. Cars range from small to large with few to many features to accomplish various needs. 

 What I have set my sights on is a practical suburban human powered alternate transportation vehicle to be  used by average folks to do their shopping and running errands in the 2 to 5 mile radius. Average speed 14 mph. These design limits give the opportunity to come up with a viable vehicle. 

........How true this is. But I look at the fact that the bare trike business is booming. Although adding a shell of some kind may not be ideal it does change a trike into a vehicle, a vehicle that is first of all

Re: Velomobile design

Giles Puckett — 2012-01-08T02:24:38

I'd like it if there _were_ any companies to do lobbying here - people 
have tried to sell these things, but nobody lasts long in the business. 
They always seemed to be bickering, fragmented and demoralised.


When lawyers got involved, and if there was substantial damage or 
injury, you can bet the rules would change real quick.

G.


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Re: Velomobile design

Rob Hague — 2012-01-07T08:09:41

The liability costs following a collision could be a big problem though.
Rob

On 7 Jan 2012, at 02:58, David M. Eggleston wrote:


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Re: Velomobile design

David M. Eggleston — 2012-01-07T02:58:09

Hi Giles,

  You make a good point. We have the same problem in the States, although 
the Consumer Products Safety Commission allows up to 1 HP motors for assist, 
as long as the speed is limited to be less than or equal to 20 mph. That 
makes this a national standard. I believe this standard resulted from 
substantial lobbying by electric bike companies.
I understand that California allows motors up to 2 HP and speeds up to 30 
mph, although you need to have a driver's license to qualify. As a practical 
matter, no governmental bodies seem to be interested in enforcing these 
speeds or power levels, so they only have the effect of limiting what 
manufacturers can sell. Otherwise it is likely nobody would notice 
violations of this law unless lawyers got involved.

David

-----Original Message----- 
From: Giles Puckett
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:25 PM
To: David M. Eggleston ; velomobile< at >hupi.org
Subject: Re: [Velomobile] Velomobile design

On 4/01/2012 5:02 AM, David M. Eggleston wrote:
[lots of intere