gmane.comp.web.services.soa.yahoo-1

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

jeffrschneider — 2008-08-28T02:07:48

--- In service-orientated-architecture-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org, "John Evdemon" ...> wrote: Real scary. Did I ever tell you about the vendor near Seattle who pitched it as an 'intermediary format'?? That was a scary one too. LOL. Jeff ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> Your use of Yahoo! G

[ZapFlash] Service Semiotics and the SOA Illusion

Gervas Douglas — 2008-08-28T09:22:56

ZapThink Service Semiotics and the SOA Illusion Document ID: ZAPFLASH-2008827 | Document Type: ZapFlash /By: Jason Bloomberg/ Posted: Aug. 27, 2008 Quick! What does a Service /look/ like? Is it an icon on the screen or some collection of XML? Or maybe the concept of Service is too abstract to have a visual representation at all? This question may sound superficial, but in fact, goes to the heart of how Service-Oriented Architecture (SOA) interrelates with related concepts like Web-Oriented Architecture (WOA), Business Process Management (BPM) Enterprise 2.0, as well as the fundamental question of how SOA provides value to the business. In fact, visual representations of Services, as well as the composition and consumption of those Services, are becoming the key to many SOA success stories. Without a visual component you can show business users, SOA becomes abstruse; furthermore, as organizations leverage Web 2.0 principles to build mashups, the visualization aspect of the Web 2.0 va

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

Gregg Wonderly — 2008-08-28T22:46:25

As is normal, computer scientists are taking words that already exist, and trying to make them apply in a particular context. People, who know and use these words in different contexts, have bias and experience which makes them perceive those usages as either right or wrong (binary logic, "sometimes" is hard to use as a logical explanation in a world of absolute logic). So, we get to have all these discussions trying to shape everyones view to something that we can all agree on, no matter how contorted the arguments get. I just wish that the SOA crowd would learn to be happy with using all the words and terms that are the "definitative" meaning instead of trying to shoehorn some silly word into being the place holder for that. Gregg Wonderly ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings on

Re: Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration"

John Evdemon — 2008-08-27T23:35:09

Doubtful. This would create massive problems, especially if an architect is using such terms without clarification. A lot of architects I know tend to do this without realizing the impact on the team. Yep - this is this is just good project mgmt/SDLC. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> Your use of Yahoo! Gro

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

John Evdemon — 2008-08-27T22:25:34

I see this a lot from vendors, consultants and analysts. Scary stuff. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

Anne Thomas Manes — 2008-08-27T21:21:13

Good points. In choreography, the individual parties are responsible for coordinating their own activities. In orchestration, an orchestration engine is responsible for coordinating the workflow. Anne On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Michael Poulin yahoo.com> wrote: ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest< at >yahoogroups.com mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured< at >yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe< at >yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration"

Rob Eamon — 2008-08-27T15:56:51

Interesting thread with lots of good discussion. At what point in an architecture definition, or in a design, does the distinction between choreography and orchestration matter? In an architecture or design will the use of one or the other term be sufficient without further explanation? Seems to me to be yet another case where assumptions about what a particular means in a particular context will lead to miscommunication. One is wise to ensure that the parties involved have a common understanding of the terms being used, however said terms are defined. -Rob --- In service-orientated-architecture-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org, Michael Poulin ...> wrote: ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-archite

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

Michael Poulin — 2008-08-27T14:07:37

When we use terms, we, actually, refer to the meaning of the terms. The confusion with choreography and orchestration comes exactly from the extreme similarity of Webster's explanations. The meaning of terms may be based on the standards, so, I disagree with you, Anne, about appropriateness of using particular standard (or appropriateness of meaning particular standard). But is is just a bit. The "WS-CDL does not depend on a specific business process implementation language. Thus, it can be used to specify truly interoperable, collaborations between any type of participant regardless of the supporting platform or programming model used by the implementation of the hosting environment." - is very powerful quality because it frees us from the Web Services. However, I still curious what does mean "coordinated interactions" in "Choreography refers to a description of coordinated interactions between two or more parties." Who does coordination? If each service has to know about coordination, this is one thing,

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

Anne Thomas Manes — 2008-08-27T12:09:34

Michael, It's important to distinguish the definition of terms from specifications that define standard ways to implement the terms. "Choreography" and "orchestration" are terms. BPEL and WS-CDL are specifications. I don't think it's appropriate to say that "choreography" as a term is based on WS-CDL. Per Merriam-Webster: Choreography: cho·re·og·ra·phy Pronunciation: \ˌkȯr-ē-ˈä-grə-fē\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural cho·re·og·ra·phies Etymology: French chorégraphie, from Greek choreia + French -graphie -graphy Date: circa 1789 1: the art of symbolically representing dancing 2 a: the composition and arrangement of dances especially for ballet b: a composition created by this art 3: something resembling choreography Orchestration: or·ches·tra·tion Pronunciation: \ˌȯr-kə-ˈstrā-shən\ Function: noun Date: circa 1859 1: the arrangement of a musical composition

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

Alan Dean — 2008-08-27T11:37:38

It seems to me that Orchestration / Co-ordination has a central Conductor / Co-ordinator whereas Choreography does not. Thus: - Orchestration is Autocratic - Choreography is Autonomous Alan On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Steve Jones public.gmane.org> wrote: ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.g

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

Michael Poulin — 2008-08-27T11:35:04

Oh yes, IT does not dance, it mostly goes cap in hand to the business in our days... :-) - Michael ----- Original Message ---- From: Steve Jones public.gmane.org> To: service-orientated-architecture-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:05:32 PM Subject: Re: [service-orientated-architecture] Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w Basically I think the point is that choreography, orchestration, co-ordination, process management and all the other words are very badly defined. I wouldn't be surprised if a vendor pitched a BPEL engine as a choreography product. One reason (IMO) that choreography hasn't caught on as well is that its real world equivalent (dance) isn't really an IT speciality. Steve 2008/8/27 Michael Poulin yahoo. com>:

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography)

Michael Poulin — 2008-08-27T11:31:20

+1, Ashley The only comment here is that "road navigation" in choreography is at the service level, i.e. it makes the service aware of who they have to communicate with. Isn't this a violation of SO Autonomy principle? - Michael ----- Original Message ---- From: Ashley at Metamaxim public.gmane.org> To: service-orientated-architecture-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:04:22 PM Subject: Re: [service-orientated-architecture] Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography) Michael My take on this (as a somewhat distant observer) is that the area of dispute is not so much on the distinction between "choreography" and "orchestration" as concepts, but on the need for a language to describe/capture choreography independently of orchestration. The work on WS-CDL *is* developing such a language, and the emerging language contains constructs for describing message sequencing that app

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

Alexander Johannesen — 2008-08-27T11:28:23

Only when you work for the wrong company ... :) Alex

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

Steve Jones — 2008-08-27T11:05:32

Basically I think the point is that choreography, orchestration, co-ordination, process management and all the other words are very badly defined. I wouldn't be surprised if a vendor pitched a BPEL engine as a choreography product. One reason (IMO) that choreography hasn't caught on as well is that its real world equivalent (dance) isn't really an IT speciality. Steve 2008/8/27 Michael Poulin public.gmane.org>: ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography)

Ashley at Metamaxim — 2008-08-27T11:04:22

Michael My take on this (as a somewhat distant observer) is that the area of dispute is not so much on the distinction between "choreography" and "orchestration" as concepts, but on the need for a language to describe/capture choreography independently of orchestration. The work on WS-CDL *is* developing such a language, and the emerging language contains constructs for describing message sequencing that appear to overlap/duplicate the constructs in BPEL. My understanding is that their doubt over the need for this independent language caused IBM and Microsoft to withdraw from the WS-CDL work. If the doubt about the need for a choreography language is well founded, then the question of how choreography is managed is open. One answer is to require that participants adhere to certain fixed patterns of behaviour, and this is the approach of, for instance, RosettaNet with its standard "Partner Interface Processes". But, arguably, this is like handling road navigation by providing a set of fixed A to B routes w

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

Michael Poulin — 2008-08-27T09:58:33

Folks, when I asked my question about choreography and orchestration I expected that somebody would point to a place where the difference "had been clearly articulated" I also noticed Anne said many people disagree with the difference between them. What would be their arguments? To my knowledge, choreography is based on a standard, which specifies protocol of service-service (sorry, Web Service - Web Service) interaction. The standard does not define how to find/decide which Web Service has to talk to which Web Service next. It is a choreography script who drives the sequence of interactions. I am not sure, but this script is a proprietary thing(?). Saying this, I do not see a big difference between choreography and orchestration from the < at >fixed< at > perspective. However, due to BPEL and BPM at large, orchestration is viewed at the 'application' level and it is too high level for techy who used to deal with interactions between SW component at the network level, where choreography resides. Question to S

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

Steve Jones — 2008-08-27T00:47:51

I'd go for this and make a build. Orchestrations are "fixed" in that there is a described set of steps and decisions. Choreographies, should be, more goal oriented and be about the co-ordination of resources towards that goal. Steve 2008/8/26 John Evdemon public.gmane.org>: ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.g

Re: REST/SOAP and Choreography (was: A RESTafarian who eschews the use of SOAP)

Anne Thomas Manes — 2008-08-27T01:08:11

Exactly my point, John. Not everyone agrees with your (and my) distinction between choreography and orchestration. I'm positing that the person writing the original article was, in fact, talking about orchestration rather than choreography. Anne On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 3:50 PM, John Evdemon public.gmane.org> wrote: ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: service-orientated-architecture-unsu

Re: Distinction between "Choreography" and "Orchestration" (was REST/SOAP and Choreography (w

John Evdemon — 2008-08-26T21:47:23

Orchestrations describe what an overall process appears to do without specifying how any of it is implemented. I view choreography as a form of peer-to-peer interaction because there is no "conductor". The choreography is an agreed-upon model for interactions that may consist of a series of orchestrations. From a B2B perspective, orchestrations are intra-organization while choreographies are inter-organization. Put more simply, one organization does not orchestrate another. I'm sure others have different opinions on this. John ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE

Re: REST/SOAP and Choreography (was: A RESTafarian who eschews the use of SOAP)

John Evdemon — 2008-08-26T19:50:58

Minor quibble: BPEL is an orchestration language, not a choreography language. John ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:service-orientated-architecture-digest-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org mailto:service-orientated-architecture-fullfeatured-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: service-orientated-architecture-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw< at >public.gmane.org <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Quan of BigBlue on Cloud & SOA

Gervas Douglas — 2008-08-26T15:17:13

You can read the interview at: http://searchsoa.techtarget.com/news/interview/0,289202,sid26_gci1326983,00.html?track=NL-110&ad=658149&asrc=EM_NLN_4310392&uid=5532089 Gervas <