gmane.comp.video.synfig.devel

Re: Hi Synfig devs

Carlos Lopez Gonzalez — 2012-05-22T16:21:24

I would like to invite to fill the chart I've made. All you have write rights I think.
I won't start any code string substitution until the chart is filled and agreed :-P
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah8g_H3f7qpZdDR1N0piUThqZ0pySjh3eERzMjBDQVE


Zelgadis wrote:
--------------------
2012/5/22 Carlos Lopez Gonzalez <carloslopezgonzalez< at >yahoo.es>:

Let's don't make things too complicated. I don't remember such strange
phrases like "Then the user selects all the BLine point's Ducks." in
documentation. Even if we have such ones, let's avoid them. Keep it
simple: "User should select a vertex together with its tangents". Or:
"User should select a vertex together with its tangent and width
handles". It's just a matter of good writing style. ^__^

In fact BLinePoint is a kind of internal concept that visible to user
only as the parameter type. He needs that definition only in
export/linking operation to distinguish vertex (as BLine Point
element) from the whole Bline point. We don't have "BLine Points

Re: Hi Synfig devs

Zelgadis — 2012-05-22T15:09:45

I like the "Library" suggestion! "File->Place" doesn't looks god for me.
For "Bline" I still like the "Curve", but after all arguments the
Spline is OK for me. Also I like Nikita's "Shape" alternative. In
fact, the more I think about it, the more I like "Shape" - "Shape
Tool" sounds good. But if everyone prefers Spline, that's ok for me
too. ^__^

2012/5/22 Carlos Lopez Gonzalez <carloslopezgonzalez< at >yahoo.es>:

Let's don't mix too many goals at once. ^__^ I mean, let's concentrate
on terminology change and only after that - change all the rest
(canvases list, svg stuff, etc...) I mean we should go in small steps,
because terminology change is a lot of work already. ^__^

2012/5/22 Carlos Lopez Gonzalez <carloslopezgonzalez< at >yahoo.es>:
In Graphs Panel we have Graphs, not Curves. ~_^ There's no "graph
curve", just a "graph".

2012/5/22 Carlos Lopez Gonzalez <carloslopezgonzalez< at >yahoo.es>:

Let's don't make things too complicated. I don't remember such strange
phrases like "Then the user selects all the BLine po

Re: Hi Synfig devs

Timothée Giet — 2012-05-22T12:20:44

Cool, more answers! :)

I agree control point is a bit long, handle is better.

Children Panel: Library is ok for me too.

Import: I like it like it is. "Place" sounds strange, import is more
meaningful to me.

I agree with yu's suggestions regarding icons.
You're right there's different icons involved in this renaming:
"Encapsulate→Group"
"Canvas green icon"→"Group layer"
"Select all child layers"
"Canvas" parameter

"Set"
"Add layers to set"
"Remove layers from set"

About the "Canvas" line in parameters, true a good icon based on group icon
concept could work. But we keep it named Canvas, as it's the canvas
parameter of the group layer.
(Actually this is the remaining indication that you can use a group to
import an external canvas ;) )

I'd be happy if you have some proposals for the new icons (I very much like
the work you did before).


So I agree with all the resume from Genete, except " BLine point: Spline
item" where I'm not sure.
The item term sounds strange, why not keep point → Spline point

Re: Hi Synfig devs

Yu Chen — 2012-05-22T11:19:22

~ yu



2012/5/22 Carlos Lopez Gonzalez <carloslopezgonzalez-mRCrAkd8dF0< at >public.gmane.org>



I am a bit sad, I have to say bye-bye to (Paste) Canvas Layer :( This is an
unique indicator of Synfig differs to other graphics softwares. and it
is/will a big actor (concept) in my UI redesign plan. Any way, I trust the
choice what you guys do :)

Regarding icons, there would be one more involved: canvas type of Paste
Canvas Layer in Parameters panel. We can not just used Canvas Icon for
canvas type, because Canvas Icon is a green ball as you can see, the circle
shape already used by Vector type. So maybe we should redesign canvas icon
as well, and the apply same metaphor to canvas type. Actually, when I
redesigned these icons for various panels and types, I tried to redesign
canvas icon, but I couldn't find a solution that satisfied me.

The current one is based on the concept of encapsulate. The new _group
layer_  and _group tool_ can take the folder icon used by current group
panel, as we are trying to introduc

Re: Hi Synfig devs

Carlos Lopez Gonzalez — 2012-05-22T07:00:10

Hi guys!
First sorry for miss the interesting conversation hold yesterday but I was distracted working on Cairo implementation strategy ^__^

Instead quote to each answer let me do a summary of the redefinition process, my preferences and thoughts.
Duck: I am with Nikitakit here. Although "Control point" is OK it is too long and works conceptually I do prefer something more synthetic and generic. Handle or Anchor are good candidates to me. Currently there are BLine point and Width point that refers to the group of ducks that belongs to a list item. This is related to the problem of rename BLine. I vore for Handle.

Curves panel: Graph panel. OK

CPoint: Color stop. OK

Encapsulate and Paste Canvas layer: Both concepts and its icons has to be reviewed. I vote for Encapsulate -> Group (as verb) and Paste Canvas layer -> Group layer (as noun).

Group: Set is OK

BLine: Say we call it Curve. It implies to call Curve point to the set of ducks that represent the current BLine point. So if we rename Duck to Control

Re: Hi Synfig devs

Nikita Kitaev — 2012-05-22T04:48:51

I like the suggestions here. From the current list, I agree with:
Cpoint -> Color Stop
Encapsulate -> Group
Groups -> Sets

"Control points" seems too long for such a common term: especially in
phrases like "tangent control point". Shortening it to "controls" or
just "points" may not work ("controls" is ambiguous, "tangent point"
has a different meaning). I suggest Handles, Nodes, or Anchors.

For BLine I like "Spline" the most, but it still seems technical. What
about making the name less prominent? (Shape tool/Outline layer/Region
layer, and use Spline only in the parameter panel)

Also, some more suggestions:
Children panel -> Library (Upgrading it to function more like a
"library" in other tools wouldn't hurt too)
Import -> Place (Following a convention from desktop publishing:
"place" a JPEG vs. "import" an SVG. "Place" implies embedding,
"import" implies a file format conversion)


~Nikita

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[ synfig-Bugs-3528713 ] crashing on Mac

SourceForge.net — 2012-05-22T02:15:39

Bugs item #3528713, was opened at 2012-05-21 17:16
Message generated for change (Comment added) made by jcome
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=757416&aid=3528713&group_id=144022

Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
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Category: Binary Installation
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Private: No
Submitted By: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: crashing on Mac

Initial Comment:
I downloaded synfigstudio_0.63.04......dmg . After I installed and launched, it crashes. 



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2012-05-21 19:15

Message:
There is a new release (0.63.05) available for mac osx, could you try it?
http://www.synfig.org/cms/en/download/stable

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[ synfig-Bugs-3528713 ] crashing on Mac

SourceForge.net — 2012-05-22T00:16:19

Bugs item #3528713, was opened at 2012-05-21 17:16
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by nobody
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=757416&aid=3528713&group_id=144022

Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
including the initial issue submission, for this request,
not just the latest update.
Category: Binary Installation
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Private: No
Submitted By: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: crashing on Mac

Initial Comment:
I downloaded synfigstudio_0.63.04......dmg . After I installed and launched, it crashes. 



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Re: Hi Synfig devs

Timothée Giet — 2012-05-21T22:31:42

Interesting research Yu, but I still think that whe should rename
encapsulate to group.
Here's my point:

-Layers are meant to organize the visual ordering of the composition (which
object is above or below the other…compositing) (Ok, compared to other
softwares, our layers here are limited to 1 object/layer, but I think it
has more to do with how one must conceive his drawing than with the
question here. Basically Layers are still composited the same way)

-Encapsulate/group are meant to bundle some layers together so that they
get grouped together; all the compositing attributes inside it (blend
modes, alpha, fxs) affect only the current group, and you can transfrom
them all together too…  Then the whole content result is composited using
the "master" group blending mode (I say master group because I often have
several levels of groups :P ).
In more simple words: it makes a bundle of layers that is then treated as a
single layer in the layer stack compositing; in this definition it's
exactly as in othe

Re: Hi Synfig devs

Yu Chen — 2012-05-21T18:58:56

2012/5/21 Timothée Giet <animtim-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>


:) Let me dig it more.

I did some research last week,

firstly I took famous vector based graphics softwares: Illustrator,
Inkscape, and toonboom animatepro.

== Illustrator & Inkscape ==
There is not group layer concept in Illustrator, Inkscape. in these two
software, if you group two or more objects, these objects(if they are
separated in different layers) will be moved into a certain layer.


== Toonboom AnimatePro==
There are two group actions:
1) group : to group primitive objects which are in the SAME layer only.
2) group layers : to group layers.

"group layers" is quite similar to our "Layer Group Assuming", but there is
a "ungroup grouped layers", with it you can ungroup layers without any
effect on your artwork content. So it behaves more or less same to synfig's
current Group concept.


Then, bitmap graphics software, Gimp and Photoshop were token

==Gimp & Photoshop==
There is group layer concept in the both software, a

Re: Hi Synfig devs

Timothée Giet — 2012-05-21T16:40:29

2012/5/21 Zelgadis <ksee.zelgadis-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>

Well as a reference, in the only proprietary animation software I ever
owned and used (TVPaint), the tool to draw vector curves is called Spline
tool, and everyone is fine with it, even if almost nobody has advanced math
knowledge.

And if a user asks, is a good time for him to learn what is a spline in
general, not only in synfig.
That's the difference with the encapsulate term, which in the absolute is a
real word but the meaning we gave it was synfig-specific.

In short, Spline=vector path/curve, but the word is more elegant in my
taste, and still very appropriate in its common meaning.
Also a "Curve" or "Line" tool, how is it different from the draw tool? that
makes curves and lines too… So calling it Spline tool marks better the
usecase.
I've noticed it's rarely a good idea to use too generic terms, so avoiding
them will prevent some future confusions.
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Re: Hi Synfig devs

Zelgadis — 2012-05-21T16:17:45

2012/5/21 Timothée Giet <animtim-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>:

With "Spline" we fall into the same situation as with "Encapsulate"
thing - If user have no knowledge of high-mathematics, then "Spline"
term should be explained: "Spline is just a curve thing". ^__^


Good idea.


Yes, I can take organization of documentation review.
I need to know who else is willing to help and their availability/schedule.
Also I will need a final word from Carlos about code changes.

K.

Re: Hi Synfig devs

Timothée Giet — 2012-05-21T15:45:40

Actually I change my mind too, I do agree with Konstantin.
Also I don't know in other (proprietary) softwares, but at least in Krita,
layer groups act exactly the same
(meaning a filter layer has effect only on layers below in the group, same
for alpha lock etc… )
so it is consistent to call them groups in my point of view.

So my final choices are:

-"Encapsulate" : "Group"

-"Group": "Set"

-"Bline": "Spline" (but I agree that Bline did the job, just it's not a
"real word" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_Line) )


True the changes must be done quick and all-at-the-same time.
Also a big warning notice on the website frontpage, the forums, etc… to
warn everyone.

Konstantin's plan sounds good. I can take a part of the doc to fix.
Konstantin, can you organize this (count how much people are doing it, then
split the work and assign it to each person…)?

I'll probably be more available on June, but July could work too for me.


Tim
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Re: Hi Synfig devs

Zelgadis — 2012-05-21T15:33:23

2012/5/21 David Rylander <rylleman-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>:

Yes, that's the reason why we need to do that sooner. The more we
postpone that reorganization -  the more problems we will have (amount
of posts on the forum is growing, we have more and more new users,
more documentation...).

I think Carlos will agree to handle changes in code (change only
labels, not variables).
I can take responsibility for changes in documentation. But I will
need help of you all to review the wiki pages (we can split the data
into parts, for example I will review pages starting with A-H, someone
else - H-O, etc...)
Forums will stay untouched.
The problem is that the changes in documentation need to be done
quickly and this process should be synced with the release. Changing
and reviewing documentation is a LOT of work. I think we can fit that
into one week.

So we need to define our schedule.
I will be available in periods 10-30 June and 10 July - 30 August. (On
summer I will be working on Morevna, but I wil

Re: Hi Synfig devs

David Rylander — 2012-05-21T13:25:09

2012-05-21 15:09, Zelgadis skrev:
I change my mind. I agree with Konstantin. He has a very valid point.

Groups is much, much easier to understand and more consistent with other 
software.
They are immediately understood which is not the case with capsules.

How do we handle the changes. Now we will have very huge changes in what 
things are called in Synfig, in some cases even new functions for old 
names (groups).
There are bound to be users coming to the forums with older versions and 
being told new way of doing things or people with older versions going 
to the wiki and getting very, very confused.

-David

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Re: Hi Synfig devs

Zelgadis — 2012-05-21T13:09:07

Hi!
That's me again. ^__^

2012/5/13 Yu Chen <jcomee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>:

I understand, that "Encapsulated layer" in synfig is not the same as
group in other software.
BUT, I still insist  on renaming to Group and I have a reason for that.
Let me share with you my experience of teaching Synfig to kids (age of
14 - 17 years old).
I do that for 2,5 years already and I can say for sure, that word
"Encapsulate" doesn't say anything to them. As well as "Capsule".
When I say: "You need to encapsulate those objects" - kids stay confused.
But when I say "Hey, let's group those layers together" - they have no
problems with understanding.
After that all I need to mention is that "all those filter layers like
"Blur", "Twirl" can not influence outside the group". And this is
perfectly fine for them to understand. The "scope limit" becomes just
another property.

It's proven that there's nothing in such approach preventing kids to
understand the concepts. And thus for users as well.

Don't get me wr

Re: Hi Synfig devs

David Rylander — 2012-05-21T12:41:08

...
I'm fine with all these propositions, will make it more clear I think.
How about "Capsule"? I think it's more direct and more easily understood 
by non english speakers. It also bring up a mental image of a capsule, 
like our icon. How does an encapsule look?
To select several layers and bring them together in a capsule can still 
be called "encapsulate". I think some of the confusing also stems from 
this encapsulate/encapsule. encapsulate/capsule sounds more distinct in 
my ears.
Group can work, but as pointed out before, it is more than just a group, 
it is a canvas of it's own.

We scrap the use of paste canvas and inline canvas which is plain confusing.
Set sounds great. Or selection groups.
Not sure about this. I think bline is rather good. It doesn't have a 
different meaning in other software or contexts and it doesn't take very 
long to learn what it means in Synfig.
Path is definitely not a good name, I see paths of action before me or 
paths which objects follow.
With Spline I see vector curve

Re: Hi Synfig devs

Timothée Giet — 2012-05-21T12:06:24

2012/5/13 Yu Chen <jcomee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>

Ok, so there are good reasons to keep the encapsulate terminology, to mark
the difference with groups in other softwares.
I agree with this.
But then the current "Groups" in synfig don't act like groups in other
softwares neither. So it's again a bit confusing for the user (I've been
quite confused about this the first time I saw this new panel)
So I still think we should rename those "group" to "Set", to mark the
difference.
And then I agree that some different icons are needed for those.


Yes, I redesigned group and inline canvas icons[1], there was some facts
Line is indeed more accurate than curve as it can be straight as you said.
But it's also a very "generic" term.
In a discussion with Genete, he proposed "Spline", and I like this proposal
(actually I thought about this too before but I wasn't sure if it was
really correct, but now I know it is :) )


Just my two cents.


So to summarize, we have now these proposals where we all agre

Re: Cairo implementation roadmap

Carlos Lopez Gonzalez — 2012-05-20T09:53:50

So far the first step is basically finished [1]. Probably some small changes are needed and/or some areas better explained. 
Please take a look and submit comments about its readability and comprehension. 
Some of the second phase of this roadmap might change once the current render system is understood by anyone.
Now we are in a critical point. Each decision taken by now will affect the final result.
The next steps are:
a) Read and check the current render system workflow. Polish its description.
b) Propose integration of Cairo render describing the modifications/additions needed in the code and the new flow diagram.

Once those steps are done and agreed the coding phase will start. 
Cheers!
[1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NTS5ywi_khAj-14cYfc9KLmUMDNnh3fKooZ-m3nBwgU/edit


________________________________
 De: Carlos López González <genetita-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>
Para: synfig-devl-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f< at >public.gmane.org 
Enviado: Viernes 11 de Mayo de 2012 11:11
As

[ synfig-Patches-3526887 ] Workarea rendereroptimizations

SourceForge.net — 2012-05-15T10:33:47

Patches item #3526887, was opened at 2012-05-15 03:33
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by nobody
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=757418&aid=3526887&group_id=144022

Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
including the initial issue submission, for this request,
not just the latest update.
Category: None
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Private: No
Submitted By: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: Workarea renderer optimizations

Initial Comment:
Reduces amount of float computations used when rendering the workarea. Common division expressions were solved and declared as constants.

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Re: Hi Synfig devs

Yu Chen — 2012-05-13T13:26:05

typo:

to catch synfig concept quickly.

renaming inline canvas/encapsulate to Group can not help but impede a user
to catch synfig concept quickly.

~ yu



2012/5/13 Yu Chen <jcomee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w< at >public.gmane.org>

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