gmane.comp.programming.test-driven-development

Re: Good Test Driven Development links

Esko Luontola — 2013-06-03T16:10:26

Kathy Van Stone wrote on 3.6.2013 18:55:

Here is my recommendation for people wanting to learn it: 
https://github.com/orfjackal/tdd-tetris-tutorial

Good Test Driven Development links

Kathy Van Stone — 2013-06-03T15:55:49

I gave a lightning talk on Test Driven Development. Obviously I could not
go into details, but I was wondering if there is a (current) good link to
send people for more information?  I've been a bit out of touch with
teaching it of late.

Thanks,

Kathy


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Re: Erroneous Assertion about TDD

Gábos Alpár — 2013-06-03T09:21:42

Very well said Russ!

________________________________
 From: Russell Gold <russ< at >gold-family.us>
To: testdrivendevelopment< at >yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: [TDD] Erroneous Assertion about TDD

"is there any room left for creativity in coding?" That's hilarious.

Let's reach back in time…

As poets focus more on rhyme schemes and meter, where is there room for creativity? Now they have this new-fangled thing called a "sonnet." It has to be exactly 14 lines long, all in iambic pentameter, with each of the first 3 groups of lines following an abab rhyme scheme, and the final two a rhyming couplet. Is there are any room left for creativity in poetry?

To ask the question is to demonstrate that one does not understand the industry and the practices one whit. Creativity does not mean undisciplined hacking.

On Apr 20, 2013, at 1:41 AM, Charlie Poole <charliepoole< at >gmail.com> wrote:

-----------------
Come read my webnovel, Take a Lemon <http://www.takealemon.com>, 
and listen t

Re: Erroneous Assertion about TDD

Russell Gold — 2013-06-02T03:12:08

"is there any room left for creativity in coding?" That's hilarious.

Let's reach back in time

As poets focus more on rhyme schemes and meter, where is there room for creativity? Now they have this new-fangled thing called a "sonnet." It has to be exactly 14 lines long, all in iambic pentameter, with each of the first 3 groups of lines following an abab rhyme scheme, and the final two a rhyming couplet. Is there are any room left for creativity in poetry?

To ask the question is to demonstrate that one does not understand the industry and the practices one whit. Creativity does not mean undisciplined hacking.

On Apr 20, 2013, at 1:41 AM, Charlie Poole <charliepoole< at >gmail.com> wrote:


-----------------
Come read my webnovel, Take a Lemon <http://www.takealemon.com>, 
and listen to the Misfile radio play <http://www.gold-family.us/audio/misfile.html>!






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Re: Value and Principles of Unit Testing.

JeffGrigg — 2013-05-31T09:16:27

There is no "right." We strive to do a good job. But there is always room for improvement.

You try your best ideas with the team. And then you, as a team, improve them.


First:  We live, we learn.

No matter how well you have done, tomorrow you will know more and be able to do more. You will look back and see areas where you can improve.

Recognize the accomplishments you have achieved. For example, most projects have no tests. You're all the way up to 16%. You have started, and that's the hardest part.


[I cut a lot of really good stuff from the message here. It's great stuff, so I don't have much to say about it.]



But remember: If the parts don't work together properly, the system as a whole fails. There is value to testing large integrated chunks, too.



Good ideas. Try not to stress about them too much.



But be open to making reasonable changes to the design of the production code to make it testable.



But it is reasonable to test that you are using the functionality of the framework correctl

Re: Value and Principles of Unit Testing.

Michal Svoboda — 2013-05-27T15:25:13

I think you have a lot of good stuff in there and it would be worth
making a presentation as someone else on the list suggested.

Also for anyone learning TDD and testing I recommend the article
http://arlobelshee.com/essay/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-mock

It's a nice article that summarizes various approaches to testing at
varying "proficiency levels". Key knowledge is that "testing techniques"
is not a bag of universally useful things but a bag of tools you pick up
and drop as you get more and more experienced.

Michal Svoboda



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Re: Value and Principles of Unit Testing.

Josue Barbosa dos Santos — 2013-05-27T13:22:32

Jonh,

In the GOOS list someone asked it:

worth it?

The context was that, for him, may be only ATs (Acceptance Tests) was
enough.

Follows my answer why I still value unit tests. As you write about the
value of unit tests too, may be interest you. Some points may be slightly
controversial.

RE: Value and Principles of Unit Testing.

Donaldson, John — 2013-05-27T07:47:24

John C,

Is there some way you can add a bit of structure? 
Personally I find it hard to read because it's just a bunch of sentences with no paragraphing and no headings.
Perhaps if you can think of it as a few slides that you are talking over it will help?

As far as I can tell, the content is fine.

John D.

-----Original Message-----
From: testdrivendevelopment< at >yahoogroups.com [mailto:testdrivendevelopment< at >yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Carter
Sent: 27 May 2013 05:10
To: testdrivendevelopment< at >yahoogroups.com
Subject: [TDD] Value and Principles of Unit Testing.

The following is aimed at a my own team, but before I inflict it on them, I thought I would run past the wise folks of this forum.

Suggestions, comments, flames all welcome.

What I write below is somewhat Opinionated, slightly controversial, and hence potentially Combustible Material.

I have no apologies for that.

However, that makes me all the more determine to get it Right!

The audience for the following document is a team of 20-30 exper

Re: Value and Principles of Unit Testing.

Adam Sroka — 2013-05-27T03:33:25

Two thoughts:

1) if you aren't finding smells in your own code that means you've stopped
learning. Have someone else look and listen to what they say.

2) there are always too many places to look. Remember the "Boyscout Rule."
Remember Michael Feathers' rules for how to prioritize legacy refactoring.
Remember to improve incrementally.
On May 26, 2013 8:10 PM, "John Carter" <john.carter< at >taitradio.com> wrote:



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Value and Principles of Unit Testing.

John Carter — 2013-05-27T03:10:10

The following is aimed at a my own team, but before I inflict it on them, I
thought I would run past the wise folks of this forum.

Suggestions, comments, flames all welcome.

What I write below is somewhat Opinionated, slightly controversial, and
hence potentially Combustible Material.

I have no apologies for that.

However, that makes me all the more determine to get it Right!

The audience for the following document is a team of 20-30 experienced
embedded C developers.

The large body of embedded C software they are working on, has slowly being
growing unit test coverage and has now reached around 16% by SLOC.

I'm now calling for us rethink our Unit Testing.

I have been revisiting some of our coverage, and groaning with
embarrassment at some of the stupid things I did earlier on.

I have been reading and rereading books on the subject, especially  Gerard
Meszaros' "xUnit Test Patterns, Refactoring Test Code".

I been cringing as I wade through the list of "test smells", I recognize
them all.

I think w

ANN: NUnitLite 0.9 Release

Charlie Poole — 2013-05-06T18:33:44

Hi All,

I'm announcing the release of NUnitLite 0.9 today.

In case you were not aware, NUnitLite has surprised me by attracting a
lot of users who previously used full-on NUnit. I originally intended it
for
use on platforms with limited resources, but it turns out that the
simplicity
of a test framework is appealing in other contexts as well.

Here are some of the major changes in the 0.9 release:

Framework

* A .NET 4.5 build is included. When using the 4.5 package,
  C# 5.0 async methods may be used as tests, as the target of
  a Throws constraint and as an ActualValueDelegate returning
  the value to be tested.

* Experimental builds for Silverlight 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0 are included.

* TestContext.Random may be used to provide random values of various
  types for use in your tests.

* The experimental Asynchronous attribute has been removed.

Runner

* The runner now supports the -include and -exclude options, which
  are used to specify categories of tests to be included in a run.

* Test execution time

Re: Re: If you could get your colleagues to read just one book on TDD, which would it be?

Al Chou — 2013-05-06T14:39:55

I came up with an easy way to generate Mikado diagrams programmatically using Ruby-Graphviz.  One of the co-authors of the book (Ola) liked it.  Here's an example.  The Mikado has two direct prerequisites ("1" and "3"), and prerequisite 1 has a further prerequisite ("2").  Outputs to a "mikado.png" file.


require 'graphviz/dsl'

digraph :G do
  mikado[:label => 'The Mikado', :shape => 'doublecircle']

  mikado << prereq_1[:label => 'Prerequisite 1']
  mikado << prereq_3[:label => 'Prerequisite 3']

  prereq_1 << prereq_2[:label => 'Prerequisite 2']


  output :png => 'mikado.png'
end


 
Al






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Re: [Summary] If you could get your colleagues to read just one book on TDD, which would it be?

Matteo Vaccari — 2013-05-06T07:26:04

I for one think it's a very good book on its own merit.  There are other
good books on TDD, and GOOS is certainly one of the best, but I think it's
better to read and ponder this one first.

Matteo


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[Summary] If you could get your colleagues to read just one book on TDD, which would it be?

John Carter — 2013-05-06T02:10:24

Test Driven Development by Example (Kent Beck) + 4
GOOS + 2
Refactoring + 2
Working Effectively With Legacy Code + 2
Clean Code + 1
The Mikado Method (mikadomethod.org)
RSpec
Agile Software Development, Principles, Patterns, and Practices
Effective Unit Testing
Refactoring to patterns by Josh Kerievsky.
Osherov, The Art of Unit testing
jbrains, Responsible Design for Android - on going work, somewhat builds on
GOOS
The Agile Samurai
The Art of Agile Development.
Test Driven Development for Embedded C

Test Driven Development for Embedded C is probably the one to go for if
your problem is "How Can we Do this Stuff in C"?



The TDD by example has the most votes... partly I suspect because it is one
of the oldest.



I suspect GOOS and Responsible Design for Android have some updated ideas
in them.



I really really really like The Mikado Method <http://mikadomethod.org>



It isn't about Unit Testing... but I suspect (no, I know) it works very
well with Working Effectively With Legacy Code



I have been rea

Re: Re: If you could get your colleagues to read just one book on TDD, which would it be?

John Carter — 2013-05-06T01:33:57



Now THAT is a Very Good Find! An Excellent Book!

Thanks, just what I was hoping for!

Re: What I hate about *Unit frameworks.

Adam Sroka — 2013-05-03T20:29:08

It could, but it doesn't necessarily. The only time I have ever seen it
become a problem is when someone was doing something they shouldn't
irrespective of the fact that it was in a test. Also, it's less likely to
come up if you are actually test-driving and not trying to hack a test into
something you didn't build in a testable way.

Maybe I'm a bit oversensitive on this issue. It's just that I hear people
talk about monkey patching like it is an inherently bad idea and I want to
say, "Why is it that you adopted a dynamic language, again?"
 On May 3, 2013 1:14 PM, "George Dinwiddie" <lists< at >idiacomputing.com> wrote:



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Re: What I hate about *Unit frameworks.

George Dinwiddie — 2013-05-03T20:14:32

Adam,

On 5/3/13 1:50 PM, Adam Sroka wrote:

Thanks for the admonition. I was just trying to explain how 
monkey-patching causes more interference between tests than mocks do.

  - George

Re: What I hate about *Unit frameworks.

Adam Sroka — 2013-05-03T17:50:32

Perl was my first professional language. I am not afraid of monkey
patching.

A hammer is a useful tool. Please refrain from hitting yourself with it.


On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 5:03 PM, George Dinwiddie <lists< at >idiacomputing.com>wrote:



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Re: What I hate about *Unit frameworks.

George Dinwiddie — 2013-05-03T00:03:04

Adam,

On 5/2/13 7:15 PM, Adam Sroka wrote:

No, with monkey patching you're often messing up *library code* to the 
detriment of other tests.


Maybe. Or maybe your monkey patching makes other tests work, but the app 
doesn't when it's in production and the library hasn't been monkey-patched.

  - George

Re: What I hate about *Unit frameworks.

Adam Sroka — 2013-05-02T23:15:33

Hi George:

That makes sense, but you can do the same thing to yourself with mocks.
That's why you have to make sure you write microtests for both sides of the
relationship and cover the same conditions (I think J.B. calls them
"contract tests.")

I only think monkey patching is bad when you violate the implied interface,
or when you go way down in the inheritance hierarchy and muck with things
that could have wide ranging effects (Both of which are smells in dynamic
languages anyway.) But, if you were actually doing TDD something would go
red when you did either of those things, right?


On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 7:46 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists< at >idiacomputing.com>wrote:



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Re: What I hate about *Unit frameworks.

George Dinwiddie — 2013-05-02T14:46:45

Adam,

On 5/1/13 11:25 PM, Adam Sroka wrote:

Monkey patching is a common method to create testing seams, even by 
people who would not use monkey patching in the deliverable system code. 
It's a quick-and-dirty way of mocking using the real objects.

  - George