gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap

Re: source=Google

Christoph Hormann — 2013-05-18T21:32:48

Much agreed, date of the images is much more relevant than the provider.  
The lack of this information in Bing etc. combined with the fact that 
first hand survey information is usually entered shortly after the 
survey has lead to a lack of practical need for entering this 
information.


I already had that in mind - i just explained it for the geometry only.  
Each tag could have its own metadata and this would be reset everytime 
the tag value is changed.

And of course in addition to 'source' one could think of various other 
metadata types.  The date is obvious but accuracy as well as 
reliability information could also be useful metadata.

Re: source=Google

Martin Koppenhoefer — 2013-05-18T20:47:28

2013/5/18 Christoph Hormann <chris_hormann< at >gmx.de>



yes, this is very common, at least in regions with alternative high
resolution imagery, but it is similar for object and for changeset source
tags. For instance "bing" alone doesn't tell you which zoom level you used,
but different (high) zoom levels in Bing are based on different aerial
imagery (in my area there are years if not a decade in between z20 and z21
and they also have different offsets). I almost always use at least 2
aerial imagery providers (pcn and bing), drawing in one and positioning in
the other, in the comment I simply write "...and tracing from PCN2008 and
bing". Usually with aerial imagery from webmaps you also don't see from
when they are, at least almost nobody stores this information in the source
tag, but it is much more relevant (IMHO) to know "traced from aerial
imagery from 2007" than "traced from bing aerials"
In the end it is almost pointless to compare different aerial imagery
layers with each other, what matters is reality

Re: iD, relevant tag suggestions

John Firebaugh — 2013-05-18T17:51:44

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist< at >gmail.com


iD's presets system has two levels of "suggested" tags. The more prominent
is that certain tags will, by default, provide visible input fields on
certain features, even if the feature doesn't currently have that tag. For
hotel, those tags are "operator", "building", and the various tags that
make up the address form. The less prominent level, and presumably what you
are referring to, is that iD provides a way to show any tag that is
designated as "universal", i.e. applicable to all or nearly all features.
The UI for this is a set of icons at the bottom of the fields:

https://f.cloud.github.com/assets/98601/521827/90e75992-bfd9-11e2-8d64-c45c4696d060.png

iD will hopefully eventually have a much larger set of custom fields, so at
some point it will probably need to switch from this icon based UI to one
based on search:

https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1070

Your points about the most relevant tags for hotels are good ones. i

Re: source=Google

Toby Murray — 2013-05-18T16:42:32

I will point out here that iD has invented a new changeset tag which I find
useful. It automatically records what imagery layers you use while editing
and throws them into an imagery_used=* tag. This removes the need for users
to manually tag source information if they are just tracing imagery. I
wouldn't mind seeing other editors adopt this convention.

Toby



On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Christoph Hormann <chris_hormann< at >gmx.de>wrote:

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Re: iD encouraging users to add source tags to mapobjects

ingalls — 2013-05-18T16:32:43

+1


On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdreist< at >gmail.com> wrote:

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Re: source=Google

Christoph Hormann — 2013-05-18T16:12:32

The problem is currently neither changeset nor object tags are really a 
good solution for true metadata (that is information characterizing the 
data and not the real world object).

Changeset tags have mainly two problems:

- they always apply to the whole changeset so everything you map 
together needs to have the same metadata.  This might seem to be a 
problem primarily for imports but it can also be troublesome in manual 
mapping - imagine mapping something based on satellite images and you 
need to use different images for various parts due to clouds or even 
the common case of supplementing survey data with Bing images.

- many large objects are included in a lot of changesets without 
actually being substantially modified (like moving a single node in a 
500 node way etc.)  This means finding the actual changeset a certain 
geometry originates from to get the metadata information is not so 
easy.

The solution in my opinion would be to have separate metadata tags which 
are reset everytime a substa

Re: source=Google

Cartinus — 2013-05-18T16:02:33

Anybody else who noticed we already had this discussion last year ;)

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2012-November/065034.html

On 05/18/2013 02:31 PM, malenki wrote:

---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

Re: source=Google

Martin Koppenhoefer — 2013-05-18T15:56:58

2013/5/18 malenki <osm_< at >malenki.ch>



Point is it doesn't really belong in the data, because it is metadata. What
would you say if people tagged reason=<why I did this edit> on the objects?
Similar thing but maybe more obvious. The source is only refering to the
edit when the tag is added. The next mapper changing some property with a
different source (e.g. knowledge) has then to decide how to deal with this
source tag, and there really is no satisfying option to do so.

cheers,
Martin
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iD, relevant tag suggestions

Martin Koppenhoefer — 2013-05-18T15:50:02

There are some minor issues with what appears as tag suggestions on
objects. E.g. I edited a (already quite detailed) hotel and the suggested
tags were elevation, wikipedia, note and wheelchair. I think very few
hotels have an elevation tagged, ele is generally a complicated thing to
tag (you have to understand the relevant reference system(s) to get it
right, and the most interesting information in conjunction with a building
is obtained only in combination with height) so I'd suggest to remove ele
in this case in favor of other more useful tags (e.g.  stars
/ award:hotelstars, email, internet_access, ...).

How are these tag suggestions created? Is there a way to propose the
addition of other relevant tag suggestions, or are these created completely
automatically?

Cheers,
Martin
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iD encouraging users to add source tags to map objects

Martin Koppenhoefer — 2013-05-18T15:44:28

I propose to move the "source"-tag from the object space and instead
suggest it as a changeset tag in iD.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: What to do if someone has already used a tag?

malenki — 2013-05-18T15:08:55


IIRC there has also been a try from a single mapper to map the
currencies to the relations

ma"just sayin' Jehova"lenki

;P



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Re: source=Google

malenki — 2013-05-18T15:07:10


there is source:outline=* 
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/source%3Aoutline
(used 10150 times so far)


source=survey - since it has been surveyed


there is source:addr=
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/source%3Aaddr
(used 2015605 times so far)


change source:outline


Mine you see above.

Re: What to do if someone has already used a tag?

Tom Hughes — 2013-05-18T14:52:55


Why would you do that? How is it useful to have that information in our 
database? We're not a general repository of per-country information...

What next? Tagging countries with president=fred_bloggs?

Tom

Re: source=Google

Yohan Boniface — 2013-05-18T14:26:37

This is not my opinion. Let's take a simple example: a school.

Some first user maps it from imagery, and so just draws the building.
So we have something like:
building=yes
source=Bing

Now someone who went on the place add the fact that this building is a 
school. So we have something like:
building=yes
amenity=school
name=Ecole de la Vie
source=Bing;survey

Now, the public administration release an open data file with many 
informations on every schools. Someone takes this info and add it to our 
school. So we have now, for example:
building=yes
amenity=school
name=Ecole de la vie
capacity=1800
wheelchair=yes
addr:street=Rue de la Vie
addr:housenumber=42
source=?

Now, we have the opportunity to fly a drone on the area, and so we have 
a very accurate imagery, which is great. So someone goes on our building 
way and move it a little bit, change a little bit the shape to better 
follow the reality, etc.

So the question is: now, what should be the source tag value? And which 
of every attributes or geo in

What to do if someone has already used a tag?

Andrew — 2013-05-18T14:25:55

I added a tag ‘flag’ with URLs of flag graphics to country relations[1],
flag=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Flag_of_Fiji.svg
being a typical example.

When I was intending to document what I had done I found out that apart from
nationalities with amenity=flag/man_made=flagpole/man_made=ground_flag the
tag is also in use on streets with colours and bus stops with the values
‘yes’ or ‘no’. [2]

What is the best way to go from here?

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/15814293 and following
changesets. 
[2] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/flag

--
Andrew



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Re: source=Google

malenki — 2013-05-18T13:55:43


Since Google links to websites of the schools, restaurants etc I'd
consider it wrong to say google is the source. One could also say
source=internet or source=brain. :)


+1 (except if there is one changeset for one object (; )

Re: source=Google

Dave F. — 2013-05-18T13:10:49

I use Google daily to map in OSM. I search their database for names & 
websites of schools, restaurants etc. Nothing wrong in that. I don't tag 
the source as google, but others might.

IMO Source should be on the object, not on the changeset.

Dave F.

Re: source=Google

malenki — 2013-05-18T12:58:19


As it seems for the value parts with the matching dates on them. 


hopefully

Re: source=Google

malenki — 2013-05-18T12:56:58


I see no difference in using source= on objects or changesets except
the "visibility" for the source

Re: source=Google

Chris Hill — 2013-05-18T12:46:13

Recently I asked a new contributor to the area I routinely check about 
the fact that he had tagged source=google on a changeset for some paths 
he had added. It turned out that he had legitimately traced Bing 
imagery, but he had assumed it was Google - the only imagery he was 
familiar with. This is now burned into the history, forever giving the 
wrong impression.

My take on this is that _all_ of these dubious sources need 
investigating with the original editors. Any real transgressions should 
be redacted, but expect some genuine errors as I found. These need 
marking or recording to show they are not worth investigating again in 
the future.

Re: source=Google

Martin Koppenhoefer — 2013-05-18T12:44:42

2013/5/18 malenki <osm_< at >malenki.ch>


don't put source tags on objects but on the changeset?
If you are interested what the intended meaning is, you should ask the
contributors who added this, I guess different mappers used this for
different things, "google" is quite generic.

cheers,
Martin
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